The Fire Protection Podcast: Episode 45 The State of Pre-Engineered Systems with Jamie Knowles

The State of Pre-Engineered Systems with Jamie Knowles

Jamie Knowles (Amerex Corporation) and Drew sit down to chat two years after the State of the Restaurant Industry podcast in the prime time of the pandemic to discuss where the Pre-Engineered market is going. Labor shortages and cost reductions have forced restaurants and building owners to pivot with new ideas and technology. A few new markets have emerged for a variety of industrial systems, however, opening up opportunities for distributors. More prominent owners and operators also are designing restaurant equipment to avoid traditional suppression systems. How will the market adapt to this, and AHJs ensure compliance?

 

Episode Notes:

Full Transcript

Drew Slocum:

This is episode 45 of the Fire Protection Podcast, powered by Inspect Point. Today, my guest is Jamie Knowles of the Amex Corporation. Jamie is the sales manager for kitchen and industrial systems, essentially the pre-engineered system, uh, line for Amerex. He’s a wealth of knowledge within the fire protection space. Uh, this is, I believe, my third time talking to him on the podcast. Um, a couple of years ago, he gave a state of the restaurant industry, uh, rate when the pandemic first started. Uh, so we kind of go over some, some things two years later and, and where we’re at, but also how the pre-engineered, uh, system market is transitioning different markets, different avenues, different technologies, and how even kitchen systems, um, and how building owners and facility managers are, are bringing in different, uh, technology and cooking equipment to almost get rid of all of some of the nuisances of, of pre-engineered, uh, kitchen systems. So, uh, it was great to talk to Jamie. Uh, we go for, uh, over an hour, actually. So, uh, uh, get ready for a longer podcast. And, uh, again, please like, subscribe, and share. Um, I’ve run into a lot of people over the summer who have listened to the podcast and appreciate all the support and, uh, should have more coming out here soon.

Drew Slocum:

Here we go. Um, welcome to the podcast, Jamie. Uh, I don’t know what time this is. Is it maybe the third time? Second. Second,

Jamie Knowles:

Second time for us,

Drew Slocum:

Second official. But I think you were on some of the NAFED ones.

Jamie Knowles:

Yes, yes, sir. Yeah, yeah.

Drew Slocum:

Yes, yes. So, yeah,

Jamie Knowles:

That’s fine. Cause uh, uh, the beginning of NAFED, I did some of that, but then this is our second formal podcast.

Drew Slocum:

Yeah. Yeah. That was, uh, in 2020, so it’s almost, I think it’ll probably be released when the last one was released two years ago. Um, you know, and we were going over the state of the restaurant industry and all that, and that one actually got a lot of traction. I think it got some good talking points out there because the pandemic was still pretty fresh.

Jamie Knowles:

Know, it was really fresh. We were all just getting into it, trying to figure out how to pivot and, and what we were gonna do and, uh, how to get, and I know our distributors were struggling with how to get to their customers and that sort of stuff. Yep. Uh, and now we’ve come to a couple of years past that we’re coming out of the pandemic, and there’s a whole new set of challenges <laugh> Yes. Uh oh. Yeah. That is, that is different for our industry. So it’s, it’s apropos it’s time to, to get together and discuss pre-engineered fire suppression. Uh, it’s also good timing next year at the NAF Feds. I’m gonna be giving a presentation on, uh, Friday, uh, about this subject. So this is gonna sort of help me lean into that, uh, that presentation. Awesome. And get it, get it built. Um, and honestly, our pre-engineered suppression industry is in this little niche between sprinklers and alarms. And they don’t get a lot of, uh, um, they don’t get a lot of media attention like this. They don’t have podcasts to go listen to or resources to go, uh, check out that are just specific to pre-engineered and portables. Right. Right. Uh, so anytime we can do this kind of thing, I think it gives them something to make them think about. Right. Uh, help. Hopefully, it helps them get better at their job and find other resources. If we can spread a little knowledge. I think it’s good for our little industry.

Drew Slocum:

Well, yeah,, I agree with that. And it kind of brings up a, um, a, a thought I had. I was at a, uh, one of your Amex distributors in New England recently mm-hmm. <affirmative> and big, big in the sprinkler end. Yeah. Had been for years. Got in, um, uh, bought a little, a smaller, um, extinguisher business, and he, I, I kind of told him like, to, to broaden, broaden your business a little bit more. Get into some of the, you know, they’re in Rhode Island, so they’re into a lot of the marine aspect, Right? Get into some of the FM 200 and the yachts and whatever. Now he’s in; he’s into, he’s into paint booth suppression and using your, is it IP

Jamie Knowles:

Is system all

Drew Slocum:

I Yes. Is and he didn’t even know, and he had this whole work throw flow with is and is it Derek that’s doing it with

Jamie Knowles:

You guys? Yeah, Derek, Brian, our tech, this is his person. Yes. So

Drew Slocum:

Derek’s helping him. He’s actually embedding it in an inspection. It was like this really cool avenue, and I didn’t even, I didn’t even know about it. And, um, we are using our technology with what you guys are doing. And, um, I don’t know. It’s really cool to see them expanding their horizons into pre-engineered, you know, it’s,

Jamie Knowles:

It’s nice that you know, the conglomeration in our industry with, uh, the big nationals buying everybody up, it presents a lot of new opportunity because in each of those new offices where it used to just be a sprinkler house, they’re trying to add fire extinguishers, pre-engineered systems, alarms, security, access control, all of that stuff. Um, and if you can get an anchor in some of those accounts, it can reap benefits for you. Yeah. You can do pretty well. And, and you know, they’re all trying to be everything to everyone. Uh, so, um, as they go through that endeavor and find out new ways, like sprinkler guys doing paint boots with dry chem instead of water, just like that. Right, right, right. Uh, we may start learning how to do those things. Uh, the whole industry gets better. Uh, yeah. Honestly. Uh, and then those, uh, those companies or those offices can supply a more comprehensive fire protection solution across the board. Uh, cuz the world’s not just sprinklers of alarms. Right. Our little niche is quite important to that fire protection plan in each building.

Drew Slocum:

Well, that was, that was the whole thing with it, is like, they wanted a, a bit of sprinkler, you know, they wanted, Hey, can you put a sprinkler system in this, you know, in this paint booth or whatever. And he is like, no, I’ll just put an industrial system in there. Right.

Jamie Knowles:

Well, in many cases, if you want to add sprinklers to a fire alarm, you might have to put a new underground in. Yeah. You might need a fire pump. You flat out might not have enough water at all on that site. Right. To do it. So having the option to go with dry chem that doesn’t require a water supply or, frankly, a water capture. Uh, yes. Um, uh, Right. You have to somehow retain all that water sprayed into the paint environment in a dam, a buffer, or a tank. And that is a big extra cost. So going with dry chemicals in a paint booth can, can really present a good option for the end user and the fire equipment distributor.

Drew Slocum:

Nah, that’s, that’s interesting to say that. Um, that’s cool

Jamie Knowles:

And not what, in that space, there’s a lot more, uh, mobile, um, uh, painting operations, uh, limited finishing workstations, things that it would be almost impossible to put sprinklers in.

Drew Slocum:

Yes.

Jamie Knowles:

Right. Because they’re on casters or something like that. Right. So with the standalone dry Kem system, you can kind of mount it on there, uh, and then have it connected either wirelessly to different shutdowns or, uh, or notifications, but it gives you a few more options.

Drew Slocum:

Uh, are there any other areas like in industries or, I guess, um, things to protect, right? That, that you’ve seen on, on the industrial side? Like, like paint booths? Is there any in any industries popping up that you’re Oh,

Jamie Knowles:

Yeah. Yeah. It’s our, it’s our, uh, it’s our, the funny new NFPA standard NFPA  420, uh,

Drew Slocum:

I’m on the standard.

Jamie Knowles:

Yeah. Uh, <laugh>,

The protection of extraction booths Yeah. It is still kind of the wild west out there right now. Um, we get a lot of requests. Our competition protects extraction boots with dry chemicals and standard detection. That’s not really the best application. Uh, right. Uh, um, when you’re extracting, uh, uh, concentrate from marijuana, usually you’re using a flammable gas of sometimes. Right. You change it, and that becomes an explosion hazard. Yep. Right. Uh, and, and you need detection that can deal with that. You need, uh, and you need suppression that can deliver the agent fast enough as well. Otherwise, you have an explosion building falls down, and then the fire system goes poof.

Drew Slocum:

Oh yeah. <laugh>. Yeah. You got nothing

Jamie Knowles:

That doesn’t do anybody any good. So I would say to the industry, make sure you’re using the right fire system for extraction booths. Make sure it covers flammable gases. Make sure you can detect the fire fast enough and make sure you can deliver the agent fast enough. Right. Right. Don’t go with I can, I have access to industrial dry chems, so I’ll sell that. Right. Well, it’s probably not the best application there.

Drew Slocum:

So, so what, I guess, yeah, obviously detection’s a big thing but is there anything to put out that, I mean, sprinklers are, are gonna be delayed because there’s just water delivery time and all that? And so if industrials, I guess what is there other than detection?

Jamie Knowles:

So I, I think it’s delivery time. Right. Okay. So you can, uh, build the system so that you can use a clean gas tank in a very short amount of piping so that as soon as you do get detection valve opens and it’s delivering product right now, or agent right now, versus where you’ve got maybe a dry chem system that has to deliver sand through the pipe and several elbows and nozzles to get there. It’s just gonna take longer.

Drew Slocum:

Right.

Jamie Knowles:

Yeah. So, so, uh, I think the best way to say this is each manufacturer has their own solution, Okay. And their own engineering to do that. But, uh, it’s important to note that your detection needs to be fast, and your suppression needs to be just as fast in order to tackle that hazard correctly. Uh, industrial dry chem with fusible link detections detection is just simply not the right answer.

Drew Slocum:

Yeah. Yeah. Know, it’s interesting. I haven’t, I haven’t been to my first standard committee yet, or, uh, technical meeting yet, but I’m interested to see the different manufacturers on there and, and just what’s out there. Cuz I, you know, I, I haven’t heard of anything that’s, that’s gonna solve that yet. I see a lot of sprinkler designers racking their brains over different protection and occupancy classes and all that, but nothing on the extraction side, which is probably the biggest hazard of the whole industry. So

Jamie Knowles:

Yeah, I think we’re going to involve, evolve into something that’s like what covers, uh, powder coating booths. Oh. Um, the, the fike explosion suppression system that’s used for that kind of, uh, application. And there are other ones on the market, but, uh, uh, um, I think it’s going to evolve into something like that because again, we’re dealing with, uh, the air coming in, air extracting out flammable gases within that space. You’re gonna need dampers to close it off. You’re gonna need fast detection, fast suppression, and all of that. And that kinda leans into that explosion suppression space. So, um, this is new to our whole industry, and I think it’s, uh, we’re just at the beginning of that path. Uh, and that’s why I pointed out the way I do. I, I’m not looking for a sale there. I’m looking for the industry to protect these hazards correctly Yep. Under protecting them with the wrong product. Right. Uh, and again, each manufacturer has their own solutions and their own way of doing that. So, uh, I, we’ll let their distributors bid those appropriately, but we should be doing it right. Do you know? Yeah. We shouldn’t be, uh, um, putting a system in there just because we have it and it and, and we can make a sale.

Drew Slocum:

Yeah. No,, I agree. You just won’t, you know, short and short-term thinking versus solution thinking. Yeah.

Jamie Knowles:

So yeah, on the industrial side of the business, that’s really the, uh, the, the new and emerging, uh, hazards that we’re seeing quite a bit of, uh mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Uh, I think we’re also seeing some ambiguity around what you can protect with the, uh, pneumatic detection and delivery systems too. Right. They’re sort of on the periphery of UL, or FM listed, um, uh, pre-engineered systems that meet UL 1254, uh, and they fill a space, right? Uh, sometimes on vehicles, sometimes in buildings. So that’s a little, uh, a little bit of a, an emerging space as well, uh, in industrial dry chem. But for the most part, in fire protection, that’s a smaller market, right? Yeah. So it stays fairly static and fairly consistent over time. Uh, whereas the restaurant market is much more vo volatile and pre-engineered, uh, right. It’s, uh, we, we ebb and flow with the restaurant industry. We have to adjust to the restaurant industry as they make major changes in how they do business. It affects fire suppression. Yep. Uh, and, and, uh, and we sort of have to roll with that, that industry changes a bit more and more. Obviously, it’s a bigger volume too. Everybody’s gotta eat, and not everybody’s gotta paint <laugh>. Yes. So, yeah.

Drew Slocum:

Uh, overall, how’s it, like, in the last two years? Is there anything out there? What, I guess, what have you been hearing,  you see the restaurants that have closed but are there, I guess what, what are the restaurant industry and suppression looking like?

Jamie Knowles:

Yeah, it’s been evolving for sure. So, at the beginning of the Panem pandemic, there was a sort of weeding out of the weakness in the herd, right? <laugh>, uh, the, the restaurants that couldn’t adapt and couldn’t pivot and couldn’t find out how to deliver, uh, um, they, they faded away. So we lost  a good volume of restaurants in the United States. Um, but then that industry is made up of some very hardy people. Right. There was a lot of pivoting; there was a lot of reinventing themselves and developing new ways of doing business. Uh, a lot more delivery. Right. So that feeds into the industrial sort of cloud, ghost kitchen scenario Yep. Where we’re seeing those all over the country popping up and still being used on a regular basis. Um, we see that, we also see, um, the industry trying to set up new restaurants less expensively, which is a natural sort of progression.

Right. So instead of looking at a full kitchen hood system Right? With gas lines, electric and big appliances that cost 30 grand a piece. Right. They look at, well, maybe I can go with a ventless solution. Where I don’t have to put a vent from my kitchen hood six floors up and out the side of the building. Um, so they’re looking at Ventless solutions where they can just roll in an appliance that has a, uh, a recirculating duct. Yeah, sure. Um, that has a fire system in it, but it’s a UL seven 10 B fire system where the fire system, the vent hood, and the appliance are all tied together in one listing.

Drew Slocum:

Oh, wow.

Jamie Knowles:

Yeah. So, so in that case, instead of suppressing a fire, uh, um, after a two-minute pre-burn and then keeping it out for 20 minutes, as UL tells you you have to do with UL 300, you suppress the fire, and there becomes a fireball that comes out underneath the hood, and that fireball has to be retracted or sucked back into the hood in less than one second.

Drew Slocum:

What?

Jamie Knowles:

Yeah. One second. They’re timing it. Uh, and so it’s a much different test, and it’s really designed around the appliance, the ventilation in that recirculating duct, and the fire system together. So you have to have your detection temperature low enough to get the fire when it’s in a small enough, uh, stage. Right. You have to have a strong enough fan to suck that fireball back underneath the hood and into the ventilation where there is suppression. Right. Uh, uh, do that. So it’s a much different test, but the end users can buy a standalone rollaway product.

Drew Slocum:

That’s crazy. I gotta see one of these tests. Hopefully, they have a vi Do you have a video of one of those tests? I’d love to kind of post that.

Jamie Knowles:

We do have some videos. See, we could probably put something together. Uh,

Drew Slocum:

Yeah. Like a, you know, that, that’s an interesting thing where you have to suck the fireball back in within one second. Yeah. It’s, uh, you know, everybody, I’m used to UL 300 again, I’m not too deep into the pre-engineered, but Yeah. Obviously, everybody knows UL 300, but I didn’t know about that other standard. That’s cool.

Jamie Knowles:

Yeah. Yeah. So when you walk into a bar and you see a little box that’s a deep fat fryer on the bar behind the bar. Yeah. Yeah. That’s a UL seven 10 b, uh, an application that’s got,

Drew Slocum:

Oh, it’s got a suppression system in there. I never knew that.

Jamie Knowles:

Yeah. Wow. So, so we’re seeing quite a bit more of that in the market. Uh, the other thing we’re seeing is a lot of electric appliances more, a lot more electric appliances than gas, uh, in emerging new restaurants and new, uh, new, uh, um, lineups. Uh, and it’s because of power consumption and, uh, uh, and how they cook things. They can cook things faster. They can cook ’em with fewer emissions, less natural gas, and less installation cost. Right. Uh, so they can deliver food, uh, frankly, at a lower cost to their customers more consistently. A good example of this is Outback Steakhouse is removing most of their broilers for steaks, and they’re putting in platinum clamshell griddles, just like you find in a McDonald’s.

Drew Slocum:

No way.

Jamie Knowles:

Yeah. So, because they can cook a steak from both sides. Yep. They can do it quickly. They can get it into a box, and they can get it delivered to your house quickly, and you get a good consistent Wow. Quality steak because it’s cooked from both sides. Yeah. Quickly get it in, get it out. Uh, interesting.

Drew Slocum:

So,

Jamie Knowles:

Uh, a lot of changes like that in the industry. Uh, um, a lot more electrical appliances and low emissions appliances. So with an electric appliance, you can actually test with ULl, and if your emissions from cooking off of that appliance are low enough, you don’t need fire suppression.

Drew Slocum:

Really? I didn’t know that.

Jamie Knowles:

Yeah. Yeah. So, so the, uh, the food equipment manufacturers are really exploring those avenues more and more all the time. And the best example of that is Climate Pledge Arena in Seattle. Uh, there are, I believe, and I might have this number off just a bit, but I believe there are 38 range hood fire systems in the climate pledge arena. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, 34 of them are UL seven 10 B recirculating duct systems. Yeah. And only four of them are UL 300 standard sort of fire suppression in a hood, in a kitchen.

Drew Slocum:

Interesting.

Jamie Knowles:

Uh, so all of their stations, if you go in, in, in, in any of their com commit, uh, any of their, uh, um, commissary kitchens or any of their, uh, uh, um, kitchens up on the concourse, you won’t see a regular hood duct.

Drew Slocum:

Wow. Yeah. Well, it’s, it’s, it’s crazy that, that that pushed that innovation and probably a little bit due to the the slowdown, Right? And having to reinvent. And what, um, is it, does N F P A 17 A cover that

Jamie Knowles:

Yeah, NFPA 17 A does cover any wet chemical fire systems, and the wet chemical systems, uh, or the systems that are in UL 1710 B applications, are wet chemical. So they do fall under 17 a, uh, and then there’s a recirculating section in 96, I believe as well that addresses that. Uh, interesting. And, uh, uh, the, uh, another thing that’s happening with those ventless hood solutions is it’s a lot less expensive in a city like New York. Right. Where if you’ve got a, uh, let’s say, a cafe on the sidewalk, right? But it’s in an older brick building that’s several stories. Trying to get ducted from a hood outside of the building into an, in an acceptable manner, is really expensive. Right. Uh, and it’s arduous sometimes. Sometimes there’s no place to spray that fan because if you do, you’re gonna spray it right on the law firm next door. Yeah, yeah,

Drew Slocum:

Yeah. Right.

Jamie Knowles:

So, I was up at the Food Service Consultant international show up in Montreal early this year, one of the first trade shows we’ve been able to get back into. Nice. And, uh, there was a big discussion within that group, and these are people that all they do is design commercial kitchens. That’s it; that’s their entire job. Right. Um, and there was a big discussion there about, in New York City, the vast majority of new appliances going in have a recirculating duct instead of a standard duct. Um, because again, in that cafe on the sidewalk in a big brick older building, you can slide that into a kitchen without putting a duct in.

Drew Slocum:

Yeah,

Jamie Knowles:

Yeah. Um, so we’re seeing that a lot more. And, and it’s, um, it’s a different way of doing fire suppression because it’s, it’s very, very pre-engineered, uh, <laugh>. Yeah. And we, as fire equipment manufacturers, don’t sell the repair parts directly to our distributors. The manufacturer that makes the appliance sells ’em through excuse me, I apologize, uh, sells them through a place called Parts Town that all of the food equipment manufacturers sell the repair parts through. Interesting. So, the pricing’s a little aggressive. I don’t mind saying, uh, yeah,

Drew Slocum:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Part it’s part, what’d you call it? Parts Depot, or

Jamie Knowles:

It’s called, uh, parts Town

Drew Slocum:

Parktown. All right. It’s, yeah, Parktown sounds like it’s pretty aggressive.

Jamie Knowles:

Yeah. And, and so all the parts are sold through them, but that, that’s been increasing more and more, uh, and, and has to do with, uh, has to do with cost a lot, but it also has to do with, uh, um, like lead buildings, like Climate Pledge Arena has zero natural gas in it, and, and it’s a, uh, net neutral, uh, uh, building. Wow. So, uh, so that’s why they did the ventless cooking in that particular space. Interesting. When you remove natural gas, ventless cooking becomes very attractive.

Drew Slocum:

Yeah. I could see that. Uh, back to your New York City comment, I know they rolled out a regulation to inspect and certify duct, uh, ducted cleaning. Um, I think it’s duct cleaning, I believe. Yeah. So that probably drove up the cost as well. That was like two years ago. They did that. And that may have driven up the cost and kind of forced that as well. If they’re looking at it, you know, it.

Jamie Knowles:

Certainly would’ve exposed the cost to more people so that everybody went, woo, look how expensive that is. But, but lemme say, I backed that move by New York City. They should be having, uh, a, a closer look at each, uh, exhaust duct, how often it’s cleaned, what quality is it cleaned to, is that done the correct way? Yep. If you have a ductwork that’s got several bends in it, going through several, uh, uh, stories of a building, it’s a danger If it’s not, Oh, yeah. Correctly, it is absolutely a danger. So, right. I’m all for good enforcement. Uh, uh, uh, in fact, I would say it’s one of the things that I’ve seen in the pandemic that has gotten more rigorous. I think that the fire marshals got a lot of time at home to think about how to enforce their fire codes. Yeah. And, uh, I think they, I, I’m seeing a lot of jurisdictions that did not, well before the pandemic, they didn’t comprehensively test systems. Right. They sort of just did it to the minimal. Right. Now, we’re seeing those jurisdictions have much more rigorous plan reviews. Right. Much more rigorous trip testing. Right. Much more rigorous reporting when it comes to service work. Right, right. Uh, and back to them, um, uh, a lot more, um, lot more regulation around food trucks than they Wow.

Drew Slocum:

Yeah.

Jamie Knowles:

Yeah. A lot more regulation around food trucks than they’re used to be. We’ve got fire marshals having food trucks come into their jurisdiction, and they’re unacceptable. So they’re telling them simply, you can’t do business here until you come to this standard. And they’re showing ’em the N F P A guidelines. Uh, I know. Uh, and, and, and the N F P A standards and saying, you need to come to this standard, or you can’t do business here.

Drew Slocum:

That’s, that’s nuts. Yeah. I know. Um, um, uh, for where were we going that food trucks before that, um, I forgot where we were going. You were talking.

Jamie Knowles:

Oh, <laugh>. There’s certainly more enforcement. It also there’s more enforcement in licensing and certification as well.

Drew Slocum:

Yes. Alright. I, I got it. So, uh, you know, I, I’m, I’m, I’ve been working, we’ve been working a little bit with, with Bryce or in compliance engine a little bit, and, you know, predominantly before it was a sprinkler fire alarm, but now they’re getting into the suppression side spec, specifically kitchen suppression. Yeah. So all these jurisdictions are adding that on as another line item where inspections and deficiencies need to be uploaded, which kind of creates that, you know, regulatory body. And I, it’s a good thing, like you said. Yeah.

Jamie Knowles:

Yeah. Listen, I, I’m all for good enforcement. Uh, I, I don’t mean overwrought enforcement, I mean good, solid, accurate enforcement, right? Yep. Uh, and, and the jurisdictions that do that, well, you can go into their jurisdiction and look at systems and look at alarms, look at, uh, buildings, and, and you can tell that those, uh, that HJ has done their job in that market, right. Yeah. That jurisdiction. So, uh, I, I’m a big fan of that. We like to do as much fire marshal training as we can, uh, practically, uh, as much as they want to get from us. Uh, uh, and usually, we do quite a bit of that and are happy to do that. By the way, state fire marshal associations, uh, state distributor associations, national associations, we at Amerex, and I think our whole industry want to do that. Yes. Right. Uh, so, uh, if anybody’s listening and wants that or needs that, reach out, we’ll be happy to help educate.

Uh, the, the better education we have in this industry, uh, the better we will all be. Uh, the turnover also presented a ton of turnover, a ton of turnover within our fire equipment distributors within US manufacturers. We at ul Right. Uh, really, all over. Right. Uh, so a lot of people that have been in the industry long-standing for decades have retired. Yes. And, and that knowledge base has to, uh, has to be replaced, and it needs to bubble up from within. Right. Yeah. Uh, and, and that creates a lot of room and opportunity in our industry.

Drew Slocum:

It is. Yeah. And I think there was a sta um, NFPA, and Matt Klaus posted; you may have seen it the other day, but I think they pulled it, and I could get this wrong, so don’t quote me on it. I think they pulled, you know, anybody in the last, um, I don’t know, 12 to 18 months that were retiring. So they pulled those people at NFPA, and they asked them, I’m like, what is your, what is your thought on your knowledge being passed along after you retire? And 25% of them said it’s passed along, but the other 75 said, A lot of that knowledge is being lost. Right. Yeah. So there’s a big, there’s that big gap there. And it’s interesting they did that study, and I’m glad they’re, I’ve, I’ve actually mentioned it a few times in the last week or so. So, uh, uh, it’s interesting to see who’s gonna fill that gap Yeah. And how long it takes for just that knowledge base. Right.

Jamie Knowles:

Well, it’s, it’s very important, and our industry’s on this path to do this, uh, through places like, uh, FPC and at O’Brien and the FeD Learning Center, uh, and the ICC certifications, NFPA 96, adding those license and certification passages all over their document NFPA 17 A and 17 as well. Right. That whole effort is really helping with, um, enforcement and requiring a high level of knowledge for technicians. But we’re still struggling to get those technicians up to speed fast enough so that they can work for their employer, and produce some money for their employer without sacrificing quality. Yep. Right. Of service and quality of installation. And I think our entire industry is struggling with that a little bit. Right. Uh, but what I would say is those entities I mentioned before are doing a really good job of upping the industry’s game or providing options for these fire equipment distributors so that they can take advantage of these options, get their fleet of technicians really up to a high level, and then as they lose technicians, which is inevitable these days mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right, that you can replace somebody, you can build a feeder system in there. It gets equipment, another one that offers I c c training for the fire extinguisher certification. Uh, there’s another one there. Uh, and, but plenty of places are doing it, and it’s increasing.

Drew Slocum:

Yep.

Jamie Knowles:

Uh, um, and, and I think that’s one of the most important things we have right now, cuz our industry’s growth. Uh, uh, we’ve got all the conglomeration, you know, the big companies are getting bigger. Right. Uh, and they’ve got these big staffs of new employees, and you know what, they’re trying to get ’em trained up too. They’re trying to get them up to speed so that they can produce some dollars for ’em every day. Um, that’s probably the biggest challenge in our industry is getting new people in trained adequately or more than adequately, and then out on the road doing the proper work, um, fast enough. So, yeah. Uh, I think you could go to every fire equipment distributor, and they tell you that that’s a challenge there.

Drew Slocum:

Oh, yeah. It’s, it’s,  a pain, pain point challenge slide together the other day, and its labor shortage and just knowledge base is number one. Right? Yeah. Yeah. There’s, there are other rising costs and, um, uh, you know, supply issues and all that’ll, that’ll settle out. But yeah, labor’s, labor’s the tough piece. You

Jamie Knowles:

Know, what the supply chain issues have done to the market that I’ve seen. Uh, um, and lemme just say this, I think each manufacturer has had their own individual challenges, and I think each manufacturer’s done an admirable job of getting product on the market. <laugh> Yes. And getting, getting it to market as fast as they could. Uh, uh, it’s a, being a fire equipment manufacturer these days is not for the faint of heart. No. Uh, yeah. Um, so, but, having said that, I think the result in the market because of it is that the big end users or any end users don’t wanna be sole-sourced. Right. Right. Uh, they are looking for diversification everywhere. Yes. Uh, you might not be the primary supplier for a big end user, but if you’re the secondary supplier, that could be just as good. Right. Uh, um, it’s really a reshuffling of the deck in a lot of cases because these end users are, Hey, this particular entity couldn’t help me open a store, but this one could. So now, instead of giving a hundred percent of my business over here, I’m gonna diversify. I’m gonna give half of it over here, so I have options for myself.

Drew Slocum:

Yeah. And probably the same as from the distributor’s point of view. I mean, sprinkler’s more of an open market and then, and then you got suppressions probably next, and then, and then alarm. But alarm’s having to deal with it too is they can’t get parts. So, yeah. All right. If you’re, if your primary’s one of the big, big, you know, one of the big boys, like if, do you have a secondary and are you big enough for them to get parts? So I think you have to diversify as a, as a, you know. Yeah.

Jamie Knowles:

Listen, a distributor should, honestly, these days, wants as much diversification as they can right up to the time when they pull and pull the permit. Yeah. When they pull that permit, they’re locked in. Right. At that point, the supplier has chosen better support ’em, or they’re in trouble. Right. <laugh>, uh, uh, uh, but right up to the point where they pull that permit. Right. They want as many options as they can, or want as many options as they can so that they don’t get stuck behind the eight ball or get in a position where they can’t get a store open for one of their clients. Right. Uh, and, and it’s a challenge for everyone, uh, uh, everyone. And I would just simply say that I got a lot of respect for the business prowess and the tenacity o of our small fire equipment distributors that install restaurants. I mean, they are some tenacious people Oh, yeah. Uh, on, on all sides. And I got a lot of respect for that. Uh, um, and hopefully, the market and the supply chain’s gonna come back to support them a little more than it has been in the last couple of years. So,

Drew Slocum:

Yeah. And I think it’ll; it’ll, it’ll improve as, as inflation kind of, you know,

Jamie Knowles:

Yeah. It’s gonna solve itself a little bit. Right. Inflation’s gonna has been spiking quite a bit. We’re gonna have a little bit of a dip in recession. Uh, the question is, how will that affect the food and restaurant market? Yeah. And, my guess is that it’ll push right through, um, uh, some of the low hanging, uh, businesses that maybe aren’t as well planned as ever. We might lose those, but I don’t see the big national slowing down at all. Uh, I don’t see most big hotel chains slowing down. Uh, uh, you know, uh, I think a lot of that’s just gonna push right through. Cuz as we started with, everybody’s gotta eat,

Drew Slocum:

Everybody’s gotta eat. Yeah. The costs are going up, but everything else is going up. So, yeah. I, I, I heard an article the other day about just, just different restaurant tours, uh, pivoting just some of their menu and, you know, a lot of it’s, you know, labor, but it’s, it, it’s the cost of the food too. Um, that’s right. So they’re moving to more of a plant-based option, like cutting out certain proteins. Right. And it was just interesting to hear that they’re adjusting the menu a little bit, you know? Yeah.

Jamie Knowles:

I watched the story this morning on this very thing, and, uh, the restaurant owner said, I place my weekly order for food that they have available. Right. That is what I take. And then I build my weekly menu off of that.

Drew Slocum:

Wow.

Jamie Knowles:

Right. Because he doesn’t wanna build his menu, keep it consistent, and then not be able to get all the pieces or all the products he needs to build those menu items. Right. Right. So instead, he’s just been proactive and go, okay, each week I’ll order what they have, and then I’ll build my menu for the week off of that <laugh>. Uh,

Drew Slocum:

That’s funny. And,

Jamie Knowles:

And kind of a proactive way to do it. But that inventiveness is what I’m talking about. These people are, have some tenacity to ’em. Uh, they, they, they, they see a roadblock, and they just find a way around <laugh>. So, and you know what? It’s survival, right? I mean, if they don’t, their restaurant won’t survive. Uh, right. So I, I just, I have a, I got a lot of respect for restaurant owners. I think it’s a hard gig. I think it’s a passionate, uh, business that the, they, they, they get in for their passion, and then they find out that how difficult it is <laugh> and the ones who make it through, ugh, they, they, they’re good business people.

Drew Slocum:

Yeah, they are. They are. And it’s, it’s a lifestyle business too.

Jamie Knowles:

Yeah. So, you know, interesting. We’re, we’re sort of talking about things that happened during the pandemic and different changes in the market, um, internationally. One of the things that are interesting is there’s a lot more players on the market now. Uh, a lot more restaurant fire suppression systems have, been getting approved and out on the market. There’s a company called Moak that now has UL listings. There’s rotor X has got a system, Muhammad’s got a system. There’s a place called Hood Saver, uh, wow. That’s out there. And they’re all sort of on an international basis pushing into different markets. Some of them are pushing into the US and trying to sell systems, uh, right. That has UL 300 listings. Uh, right. But that’s also been a pretty decent change in the last few years. I mean, these companies are all coming at kind of coming out of the woodwork and, uh, and, and frankly making a lot more options on the market, but also confusing the market a little bit because they’re tested to different standards. Some of these systems are L P C B listed, and some of them are listed to be. There’s a new standard in Europe called e N 1 74 46, like one system listed to that. Uh, China has a new standard, not a new standard, but a, a, the CCC standard where if you wanna do business in China, you have to go there and do fire testing.

Drew Slocum:

Wow. Right.

Jamie Knowles:

So, wow. So that kind of, the international market is, uh, is, is changing and evolving quite a bit, uh, right now

Drew Slocum:

Quite well. I’m interested to see, you know, the US is, is us is pretty, but there are there more regulations coming out within other countries with, with the systems and that’s what, you know, it’s interesting that there are more manufacturers coming on, even though it’s gotta be, there’s gotta be more demand in the other countries. Right. Well,

Jamie Knowles:

Some of it is regulation chains like Brexit. Brexit, right? Yeah. Uh, it made the EU stand on its own. They used a lot of British standards prior to that. Right, right. And now that they’re standing on their own, they’re developing em standards where maybe they didn’t have one before or maybe where they were using an alternate standard previously. Right. So I think political shifts like that are also causing changes, right? Uh, uh, changes in the market. Uh, and then places like China want to control their destiny and are big enough to do so, Right? Are you looking at UL and looking at the United States and going, why do we need that? We can do this ourselves. Right, right. Right. Uh, and, and they’re protectionists, right? They want, they want to, uh, have people come and test in their facilities and, and spend their money in China and then build their product in China, right? Yep. Uh, so from a business standpoint, can we really blame ’em for that, for that <laugh>,

Drew Slocum:

Right? Yeah, exactly. And oh, I guess we’ve done the same, right? You gotta, yeah. You gotta test it over here, <laugh>.

Jamie Knowles:

Yeah. So, and, and that leads me into, you know, there’s these different standards all over the world. Well, one thing that never stops in kitchen suppression is new appliances. Uh, fire and food equipment manufacturers are out there every day inventing new appliances to cook food in different inventive ways. Yep. Um, and when they produce grease laden vapors, they gotta be protected. But what happens is these manufacturers go out and make these products and sell them to their customers, but they don’t ever do any fire testing. Right. Uh, they put it on the market and find out that they can’t sell it until there’s fire coverage. Right. So then they come to the manufacturers like us or Ansel or somebody and say, Hey, can you test our fire appliance, uh, appliance to UL 300 standards? Right. Uh, and when they get the quote for that, they choke on it and then, um, <laugh> and then decide whether or not that’s something they really wanna pay for.

But, uh, uh, that’s happening quite a bit. There’s a salamander broiler out there used in steakhouses that don’t have sides on it anymore. So the traditional coverages that are out in the market for salamander broilers don’t really fit that appliance. Wow. And the appliance just shows up in a restaurant, and now the fire marshal has to make a determination about what he’s gonna do with it. Right. Uh, so that kind of thing happens. Uh, also, UL has been evolving during all of this. Uh, they put a change into the UL 300 standard back in, I believe, 2016 that required a worst-case scenario testing for appliances that might have an obstruction. Uh, and that’s changing the way that a lot of appliances are tested. Uh, whereas before, if there wasn’t a specific test for an appliance, N F P A said, each manufacturer would use their recommendations on how to cover that appliance. Um, but now UL’s looking at that and going, Hey, you know what? We put this worst-case scenario, pla clause, a clause in UL 300 and get it approved, which it is, and now we can say, okay, we can have this appliance that you used to use recommendations for, and we can apply our worst case scenario testing to it, and now we do have a test, and you do have to pay us to do it.

Drew Slocum:

Oh,

Jamie Knowles:

Wow. Right. So, that’s a little bit of an evolution. And those worst-case scenario tests can be hard. Oh, yeah. Right. Uh, and they can be difficult to suppress, and they can create expensive coverages for fire suppression systems. Uh, uh, and you can imagine end users aren’t very happy with that. Uh, no. Right. No. So there’s a push-pull going on there in the market trying to, uh, the end users are like, we want less, we want less fire suppression. We think our appliances are safe. We think our processes are safe. We think our buildings are safe, so we need less of that catastrophic fire suppression. And UL and the manufacturers are on the other side of that argument saying, yeah, but you have minimum wage employees, you have a lot of turnovers, you’re going to get failures. There will be losses. Right, right. Uh, and that, that discussion never stops, uh, never stops in the market. All the fire equipment manufacturers, the hood OEMs, and then the, the appliance manufacturers all have to work through that problem, uh, e every day, uh, on new appliances and new cooking concepts.

Drew Slocum:

Well, yeah. I, that’s obviously it’s one of the biggest industries, is

Jamie Knowles:

Yeah. So, um, it can definitely, uh, uh, throw off a project too. So I mean, it, uh, sure. A food equipment manufacturer builds this awesome new appliance that has a ton of benefits for their end users, and then before they launch it, they have to, oh, I, what do you mean? I gotta spend a hundred grand on getting something approved so it can protect it if it catches on fire <laugh>.

Drew Slocum:

Right, right, right. You think they would, uh, know about it at this point, but maybe there’s a lot of just new manufacturers too, right?

Jamie Knowles:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and, uh, again, enforcement’s getting better.

Drew Slocum:

Yes.

Jamie Knowles:

So, because enforcement’s getting better and more comprehensive, a lot of times, that’s what’s driving it, right? It, it drives, they can’t open a store for one particular reason, cuz a fire marshal says, this appliance doesn’t have a UL coverage or something of that nature. And then it drives that end user backwards. Right. To come all the way back to the manufacturer of the appliance and the fire system and the hood to find out how to solve that problem for that one store, but then to make sure it never happens again,

Drew Slocum:

Huh.

Jamie Knowles:

Yeah. Yeah.

Drew Slocum:

That’s crazy.

Jamie Knowles:

Yeah. So, uh, that, that certainly is happening a lot in the market these days and to a benefit, if I’m honest. I, I think that diversification in the market, uh, um, multiple players doing fire testing for these end users, um, I think it, it helps the market and sort of move a little quicker, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but as fire equipment manufacturers and UL and fire equipment distributors, we better service this market correctly. We better do it. Right. We better be timely. There is a; there’s a ton of money here. Yes. And if we don’t service them appropriately, they will find a way around it.

Drew Slocum:

Us. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. They’ll, they’ll find a way. I mean, yeah. Um, I might have asked you this, but I forgot when I asked you what el in kitchen suppression is; you know, el is electric detection. I, I haven’t heard anything about it. Is it, is it just like being punted because the restaurant industry is so, so rough? Is it, is it, is there any movement there? You can

Jamie Knowles:

See, I think there are two different parts of the restaurant industry, sort of think of it like the big end users, right? Uh, yeah. They’re big chain stores that everybody’s heard of, right? All of the fast food joints, the big steakhouses, all of, there’s that end of the market, right? Right. Then you have sort of the mom-and-pop or standalone restaurant market, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, electric detection is being driven by the big end-user market and the food manufacturer market.

Drew Slocum:

Okay.

Jamie Knowles:

Okay. Um, and, and then the third, the last one would be building integration.

Drew Slocum:

Yep.

Jamie Knowles:

Uh, the building integrators, right? So, uh, so you have an end user, uh, that has global restaurants all over the world, and they wanna be able to know what fire system is protecting their store, what status, what is the status of that fire system Right. In their store and or all their stores. Right? Right. Uh, uh, and the only way to do that is to have an electric system that can talk Yes. Right. With through some sort of pro protocol Right. Back to a building integration, uh, system. Right. Uh, we are, we are rapid, I don’t would say rapidly, we are moving from a space where a normally open, normally closed signal is fine.

Drew Slocum:

Yep.

Jamie Knowles:

To a place where you’re gonna need a protocol to, uh, and maybe some data recording. Yep. Right. Uh, to record hood temperatures. Right. Uh, to record events, to record all of that. And, I think, so it’s more about the electric detection and control, Yes. Then it is the electric detection.

Drew Slocum:

Oh, okay. That makes sense. Yeah. Now from the communication piece of it.

Jamie Knowles:

Yeah. Now, what electric detection provides Right? That is feasible in detection never will; it is the ability to go with the rate of rise.

Drew Slocum:

Yep.

Jamie Knowles:

Right? Uh, so you can have a much more aggressive detector. You can do that. Uh, you can ha have a lot better response time off of, uh, uh, of a thermal electric detector than you can from a fusible length that, that has to heat up to 360 degrees, then it has to heat up all that metal to 360 degrees before it separates. Right. Right. So you get better response time, and so the system goes off when you want it to instead of 30 seconds or a minute after that.

Drew Slocum:

Right? That’s

Jamie Knowles:

Right. Yeah. Yeah. So there’s a real benefit in detection speed and versatility. If you have linear heat detection, you can protect the first inch of a hood to the last inch of a hood with one detector. Right. Right. Whereas if you are using fusible links, you’re gonna have to put one of those brackets every two feet. Yep. Yep. Presenting another thing to catch grease

Drew Slocum:

<laugh>. Yeah. And I guess it’s, you know, maintenance on it. You’re not changing the links. Right. Yeah. You’re just cleaning the wire off.

Jamie Knowles:

Yeah. Yeah. Now there, there are, there are other considerations there. Uh, usually, there’s a trade-off with our system. They’re selling a battery, uh, <laugh>.

Drew Slocum:

Oh, okay. Get

Jamie Knowles:

FUE links. I’m not sure about Ansel’s red system, but I’m sure there’s a trade-off there somehow. Sure. Uh, and generally speaking, from a fire equipment distributor standpoint, they don’t wanna lose that fusible link revenue. No. So providing them with another way to recapture, something they like,

Drew Slocum:

For sure. Yeah. That’s interesting. Uh, I didn’t think of the battery. Yeah. That, that’s big.

Jamie Knowles:

The other thing is to think about building integration. If you have, uh, an electric system and then you have sort of a canopy hood up on the wall right now, you could probably put robots underneath your hood. Right? You have a fire system that could trigger the stop of the robot if the temperature goes up over a certain temperature. Right. Or if there’s a triggering of the fire system and actuation of the fire system, it can facilitate some of that, too, because it covers the hood more comprehensively. They can raise that hood up a little farther, put a robot underneath it to just grab a patty, stick it on the griddle, take it off the griddle, and put it on a bun.

Drew Slocum:

<laugh>. Does, does the robot have a face, or is it just like a <laugh> arm,

Jamie Knowles:

Just like you’d see in a manufacturing plant? Uh, when I was up at FFCS, the Food Service Consultant International Show in Montreal, there was a big discussion about robots. Uh, really? Uh, yeah, there’s, in San Francisco, there’s a full company that, uh, a barista company that makes coffee stands, uh, and there are no employees. You walk up, touch an iPad, put in your order, the robot makes sure, uh, latte or your mocha or whatever it is you’re getting and hands it to you. Right. That’s, and there are no people involved at all. It’s all electronic transactions on an iPad. Uh, and, and, and so there’s, uh, there’s also a place, uh, that’s, that’s coming around that’s pretty innovative. You show up to this truck and place your order for your pizza, uh, on the iPad, and then inside the truck, it will assemble and bake your pizza, and it’ll spit it out at the end.

Drew Slocum:

<laugh>. That’s wild.

Jamie Knowles:

Again, no people were involved. It’s all robots.

Drew Slocum:

That’s nuts.

Jamie Knowles:

Yeah. We are, we are headed in that direction. Right.

Drew Slocum:

The Jetsons

Jamie Knowles:

Ordering app ordering, I mean, every drive-through you go to now they ask you if you place your order on the app, right? Yeah. Right. Yeah. All of that automation is coming, and it’s all being driven because of labor shortages and labor prices. Yep. But more labor shortages than labor prices.

Drew Slocum:

Yeah. Yeah. The prices, I think, can be dealt is just, there’s nobody to do it. Right. So you either have to shut down or automate and

Jamie Knowles:

Yeah. Yeah. And they’re all looking at it one way or another. Right. That’s amazing. Uh, but it’s all on that big end-user end of the market. The mom and pop or sort of standalone restaurant. One family owns this business, or two or three, and that market stays pretty stagnant. It’s very, and it’s very cost based. It’s survival of the fittest, get open quick, get your food sold. Right. Uh, all, all of that. And it stays really sort of fairly consistent in how they do business. Most of the changes come from that leading edge, the bigger companies Yeah. That have bigger market share, and they gotta have research and development budgets, that kind of thing. Right. So, yeah. Um, so

Drew Slocum:

Wow.

Jamie Knowles:

Yeah. It’s, uh, it’s an interesting time to be in the, in the restaurant fire suppression business. You’re just in the fire suppression business altogether. Uh, I enjoy it a lot, honestly.

Drew Slocum:

Uh, yeah. That Montreal, that Montreal conference sounds pretty fun. Like, it just, it’d be just fun to walk, walk the show, not even being in, you know, just to see all the innovation with, with how things are being cooked. You

Jamie Knowles:

Know, it’s, it’s a bunch of engineers and designers that have a passion about food and how it’s prepared and, uh, and how it’s made. And to sit, and listen to them talk about the inner workings of a kitchen. I mean, these guys could sit down and talk about the 5,000 different things you can make in a combi oven for like 12 hours. <laugh> <laugh>. So it’s, uh, uh, one of the big discussions was those egg bites. It’s Starbucks, right? Yeah. Uh, um, it, it’s one of the things that’s sort of threatening our industry a little bit in that they can make those in a production kitchen. Right. Cooking them in water, not needing any fire suppression or ventilation or anything for that. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Produce thousands and thousands of them and deliver them to their stores. And there’s just as consistent as any egg McMuffin you’ve ever bought.

Drew Slocum:

I didn’t know they were cooking them. Yeah. I didn’t know they were doing that.

Jamie Knowles:

Yeah. There’s a lot of that. So think about it. Starbucks competes with McDonald’s on a regular basis in the breakfast

Drew Slocum:

Space. Oh yeah, totally. And,

Jamie Knowles:

And there’s not one kitchen hood in one Starbucks anywhere.

Drew Slocum:

I didn’t, I didn’t, I never noticed that. You’re right. It’s only you got extinguishers there and a fire alarm or sprinkler system if it’s

Jamie Knowles:

A fire alarm. Yeah. They are making everything in production kitchens, delivering it to their stores, and then heating it up in one way or another, steamers, microwaves, that kind of stuff. Um, heating ’em up and, and then delivering them. And they’re doing it in a consistent enough way that the quality is there. Right. Uh, and you don’t feel like sacrificing by ordering an a, ani egg bite over an egg McMuffin.

Drew Slocum:

Yeah, exactly. I’m, I’m wondering when they do the, the barista bot next, you know. Yeah.

Jamie Knowles:

Well, you can look that up online. It’s on YouTube. Uh, they’re, they’re in operation in San Francisco,

Drew Slocum:

In Starbucks.

Jamie Knowles:

No, no. The um, the one I described earlier, the barista company.

Drew Slocum:

Yeah. Funny enough, my, one of my good friends, he has one in his kitchen where, you know, just put in whatever you want and it, you know, you got it within a few minutes.

Jamie Knowles:

Exactly. Yeah. But, you know, you think about it: low emissions, ventless, electric appliances. Right. Uh, engineered food. Right. Cost saving measures by restaurants. They’re all targeting, getting rid of fire suppression. Yeah. They’re all targeting, uh, costs that they don’t like or understand. And if they can find a way to build a restaurant without involving us, they will. So again, we need to be good vendors, good, responsible vendors, to these companies. Right. Uh, and show them that there’s a real value in the fire suppression they’re buying from us. Yep. Uh, and that we’re working with them to good, for good quality solutions. Yep. So that we maintain our industry for a long time.

Drew Slocum:

Yeah. I know these,

Jamie Knowles:

These threats are real and, and accountants that, that, uh, take care of these PNLs for all these restaurants. They manage every penny.

Drew Slocum:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Especially at the national ones, right?

Jamie Knowles:

Yeah, absolutely. So,

Drew Slocum:

Uh, well, good stuff, Jamie. Thanks for, uh, for, for popping in and giving it an update. I’m, I’m excited to see the stuff at NAED next year, kind of, uh,

Jamie Knowles:

Yeah. Yeah. You know, I’ll be, I’ll be talking to technicians as I do and companies across the country, and this is sort of my starter set for that presentation at NAFED. Um, what I really like to do, uh, cuz I haven’t been in the field for a minute now, right? So the longer, the longer I haven’t been in the field. Right. Uh, the more I realized what I don’t know. Yeah. Um, so I have a network of guys I rely on to get information, things happening out there in the market that I may not see. Yep. Uh, and I would say to your listeners if you’ve got, you know, statuses what’s happening or things you’re seeing in the market that are different, reach out. I’d be happy to talk to you. Uh, I’d be happy to work with you. You can find me on the Amex website. Uh, I’m Jamie Chuck Fyre on virtually all the, uh, social media. Oh, nice. <laugh>. Yeah. So uh, happy to answer questions and talk to people if there’s a,

Drew Slocum:

you’ve been on a few times, so I’m not, you know, we, everybody knows who you are and everything, uh, in your background there, what’s your, what you got? What’s your favorite or most, uh, eclectic, you know, item?

Jamie Knowles:

Well, it’s, it’s two. It’s actually a collection of, uh, helmets. So if you look at your right shoulder there, right? Yeah. Uh, the bottom helmet is my fire helmet from when I was a shipboard firefighter on the USS jut.

Drew Slocum:

Oh, wow. Wow.

Jamie Knowles:

Helmet above that was my father’s fire, uh, helmet when he was a firefighter for District four in Washington State here. Wow. For most of his, uh, his life. A and the, uh, helmet above that is a hockey goalie helmet that, Oh, yeah. Was my daughter’s. That’s awesome. And, uh, so those are kind of my three favorite things, and that’s my dad’s flag from

Drew Slocum:

Uh Oh, that’s great. In

Jamie Knowles:

The military. But, uh, that’s awesome. Uh, above me and then over there on the shelf there, I’ve got a lot of things, but, uh, uh, a lot of commemorative, uh, um, Amerex fire extinguishers up there. Yep. Old soda acid. And my, my collection of, uh, horseshoe, uh, horseshoe Man right there,

Drew Slocum:

<laugh>. I love it. I love it. Okay. 

Jamie Knowles:

Got that center one, the first one, when I was five. Uh, my uncle, uh, decided he was gonna teach me to weld when I was five. Uh, and, uh, and, and so we built that, him and I, and his barn. Uh, and then I got the other ones around that. So

Drew Slocum:

I can’t imagine, uh, teaching a five-year-old to weld, but, uh,

Jamie Knowles:

Well, listen, I, I don’t think I did very good, but, uh, whatever time I stopped going to Uncle Lee’s, uh, uh, the farm in the summers, I could weld by that

Drew Slocum:

<laugh>

Jamie Knowles:

<laugh>.

Drew Slocum:

So, uh, that’s funny. Um, well, cool. Uh, thanks, for popping on here. Obviously, you found out where, where you can find you, Jamie, and, um, yeah, looking forward to obviously, uh, NAED next year. And, um, yeah, please throw, throw us some lines on, on just different topics, you know, reach out to Jamie and, and Amerex, and I appreciate what you’ve done for the industry and kind of just, just some innovative items that, you know, Amex has been a really good partner of ours and trying to think outside the box too, to progress an industry. It’s kind of been stagnant, right?  

Jamie Knowles:

Really like to be very good stewards of the industry. Uh, we, we, we, uh, we think of ourselves as a company that likes to be on the leading edge of both protecting the industry from a fire code standpoint and different, uh, issues there. And also a leadership standpoint where we can have thought leadership like this, throw out ideas, throw out thoughts about what we’re seeing in the market, present presentations at industry, uh, association meetings, to sort of give that feedback to the industry. We really like being in that position in the market and want to continue doing that. Uh, so anybody that can, you know, help us, give us information and uh, and work with us, we’d love to do it. So thank you for the platform, I really appreciate it. And by the way, Inspect Points is great. I mean, you guys are pushing the industry forward  doing a lot of stuff and doing it in a way that’s nice. You’re supporting the industry, supporting the industry associations, helping them through problems like you did in California with the ADA forms, right. Uh, just helping them figure out what they need to comply with some of that stuff. So, uh, again, I think it’s, uh, good companies doing good things, being good stewards of the industry, I think.

Drew Slocum:

Yeah. Gotta, gotta look forward cuz you know, it’s, uh, it’s not about today or tomorrow. It’s about, you know, what, what’s a year from now, what’s a couple of years from now, so you’re ready for,

Jamie Knowles:

So Yeah. Yeah. We protect a lot of lives around this country, and this industry provides a lot of livelihoods for many families. Yes. Uh, yes. And it’s a; it’s a good industry too, uh, to be in. We’re gonna find out just how recession resistant we are here in the next few years, uh, right. But our industry fared pretty well the last time we did that in 2008 or 2010. So it,

Drew Slocum:

It, it, it, it swings to the service side, which is, you know, you have the systems out there; you have to service them. So yes, there might not be new ones out there for a little bit, but, um, and honestly, the pandemic was a dip. Right? Yeah. So we got through the pandemic perfectly fine. And a lot of that was recession-resistant or pandemic-resistant because it is fire protection’s essential business. Yeah.

Jamie Knowles:

Yeah. It’s a good industry to be in. I, I’m certainly proud to be in it and want to do anything I can to help further the industry for sure. Uh, that’s the, listen, I like selling stuff, and I like kitchen fire suppression, but I really like the fire business. Uh, and, and I, uh, I really like to do what I can to elevate it and make it better.

Drew Slocum:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I appreciate it again, and, uh, we’ll chat soon.

Jamie Knowles:

All right. Take care of yourself. Thanks for the pleasure platform. You take care of yourself. Bye.

Drew Slocum:

Take care. Uh,

Drew Slocum:

Want to thank Jamie Noles again from Amerex for coming on the podcast and talking about pre-engineered systems, the state of the industry, just new markets that we’re getting into, um, and just some of the new technology out there. So appreciate the listenership, Like, and subscribe. We’ve got a couple of new episodes coming out in the next few weeks, so stay tuned. See you again soon. Thanks.