Fire Protection Podcast Episode 420: The Growth of Marijuana and its Fire Protection Problem

Drew Slocum:

This is episode four 20 of the Fire Protection Podcast, powered by Inspect Point. Today, I have a little fun with the podcast, but definitely a serious topic. Melinda Amador from CodeNext, who’s also the chair of NFPA 420, joins me to discuss cannabis and marijuana growing and processing facilities. Um, we’re releasing this on 4/20. No coincidence in that. It’s a really actually fun topic to learn about. There’s actually a problem within that industry of some of these facilities. NFPAs developing a new standard to help with fire protection in that realm. All the different stakeholders who are on it. Melinda’s new to the kind of NFPA committees and is chairing this one. She has a lot of experience in the past with facilities like this, so it was a bit of a fun podcast.

So, take a listen and please pass it along. I hope you enjoy the show. Please subscribe and like, thanks. All right. We’re live. Thanks, Melinda, for joining me today.

Melinda Amador:

Thanks for having me.

Drew Slocum:

I’ve seen and learned about this standard,  NFPA 420, and obviously a lot of huge growing markets within the cannabis and marijuana side in North America and obviously the Globe. And, um, <laugh>, I was kind of tooling with the idea of putting something out on 4/20 because NFPA kind of went right into it and made the standard 420. So I was like, you know what? Let’s, get some information out there, you know?

Melinda Amador :

Yeah, absolutely.

Drew Slocum:

Melinda, I guess please give us a little background on yourself, and I guess why I’m having you on.

Melinda Amador :

Yeah, sure. Thanks so much for having me here. I’m based out of Toronto. I am a chemical engineer by training, but I’ve been in the protection and life safety consulting space for the past 15 years across Canada. And it’s really been in the last three years that cannabis extraction took off with the legalization of edibles, topicals, processed materials, and the cultivation of plants. With the starting up of the NFPA 420 committee, I applied to be part of the committee, and I was selected to be the chair. Working with everybody has been really exciting so far. It’s such a dynamic group. The new standard that has started to develop is for the cultivation, growing, and extraction of cannabis products both in different kinds of facilities and on the operations side.

So it really kind of pulls different requirements of the codes and a lot of different codes that we already have out there, kind of mapping them together. With my background in fire code and building code, and hazardous materials, the cannabis sector has been a really fun home and a really great space to work in. ​We’ve had the opportunity to work with many different producers in Canada in various stages of growth. And to see it coming together with a formalized standard, I expect, will have such a great pickup across multiple countries and sectors, it’s really exciting.

Drew Slocum:

Yeah, it’s interesting. Obviously, it’s a huge growth. I think Canada’s a little bit ahead of the US regarding laws and all that, and how it’s going from state to state is very different.

Melinda Amador:

Yeah.

Drew Slocum:

It’s kind of crazy.

Melinda Amador:

Yeah, it’s been interesting to see because I think in the US, it’s kind of been on a level that there’s been legalization to different degrees in terms of cultivation and a more formalized process. Whereas in Canada, there was kind of a track where it was just legalized federally, originally it was only for cultivation for commercial and kind of consumer use. It was originally for cultivation. And then in 2019 in Canada, it became online for your general consumer to purchase edibles or to purchase, you know, dabs and waxes and all kinds of formulated products. Whereas again, I think it’s kind of taking on a, a state by state approval approach, which means there are kind of pockets of knowledge and pockets of spaces where you have a lot of expertise and a lot of experience, some spaces that, you know, it’s gonna be very novel and very new, and there’s a lot of ground to cover and, and material to understand as, as legalization moves.

Drew Slocum:

Yeah. It’s interesting you say that. You know, obviously, the growth operations have been there on the medical side for a while. Yes. And even on the hemp side in certain states, right? Where hemp is legal or being produced. But, obviously, there’s some, there’s a, you know, I talked to some, fire protection engineer designers working in the New England area where it is legal and they’re having issues on issues for, hazard classification, occupancy classification. And, something called AG AFI or whatever, and essentially it looks like one of those U-Haul storage places, but compartments of little grow pods, right? But it’s stacked three or four tall, and it was being classed as like an ordinary hazard group one or something <laugh>, and there are so many plastics and metals in there, being stacked to the ceiling. It’s kind of like, all right, somebody’s gotta take control of this.

Melinda Amador :

Yeah. And I think that’s really where the new 420 standard will cut. I’m hoping that we create a bit of a roadmap for users and for, designers and practitioners because cannabis does introduce a few novel fire safety elements. But for the most part, these are, these are hazards and concepts that we have a good system of tools, um, accommodate for, right? Like, we know how to design buildings, we know how to classify, we know how to deal with solvents, we know how to use sprinkler systems and suppression and fire alarm systems. Sure. And a lot of those requirements translate really well into the cannabis space. We see that sometimes it’s the practitioners, the owners, and the operators, who might be kind of new to this experience.

Drew Slocum:

Yeah.

Melinda Amado:

In these spaces, there are also issues in terms of the speed of growth. So this isn’t, you know, a slow, moderate​ growth approach for an account or growing very, very quickly. They’re modifying their products, you know, at such a rapid pace. Yeah. That catching up with your building classification and sprinkler design can sometimes be a challenge. And one of the other things that’s a little bit unique to cannabis, I would say, is really that scale of operations. So, you know, codes and standards that are really well developed for bulk facilities. We have bulk extraction facility standards, NFPA, and dust hazards in many of our standards, but cannabis is more of a proof of concept or pilot scale, kind of that craft scale of production. It’s more at an artistry level and, you know, smaller batches than what you might expect from a full-blown distillery facility. Um, so the hazards are there, but some of the measures that we see in the codes may not <inaudible> the scale of, of processing in, in cannabis. And so I think that’s also what we’re really trying to capture in the standard.

Drew Slocum:

That’s interesting to say, cuz, you know, even on the, you know, on the alcohol side, right? Obviously, in bulk, they’ve got that figured out, but I think even the alcohol industry has an issue too, on the craft side, because I’ve been into distilleries, you know, in the Northeast and everywhere else where, Yeah. I mean, so it’s a highly flammable liquid, but they got, you know, regular, you know, 5.6 K factor heads, you know, in an old or newer warehouse, so it wasn’t classified for that.

Melinda Amador :

Yep. Or attached to a restaurant <laugh>.

Drew Slocum:

Yeah, exactly.

Melinda Amador:

But way up here.

Drew Slocum:

Yeah. So it’s interesting there’s like vault versus craft cannabis, it’s kind of an interesting term. It’s probably gonna make its way into the mainstream more, right?

Melinda Amador:

I mean, I think that’s, certainly, where in Canada where we’re seeing a lot of the kind of, as we’re, as we’re navigating this new market as we’re kind of, you know, people are onboarding different solvents, and they’re, you know, looking at different products and trying to see, you know, what consumers are really willing to pay and, and how much they need that, this kind of proof of concept craft scale is really what we see the most right now. Gotcha. And it’s really in a bit of a gray zone of the code if that makes sense. Like, the code’s usually pretty black and white, and like, you’re in this category, you’re in this class, right? But sometimes, due to the scale, the cannabis work kind of falls into that gray space.

Drew Slocum:

Well, and the standard will have to be, and I’m, I’m on some of the newer standards, one new standard for, for some of the new technology with remote inspections and​ ​you know, right in the standard they say, Hey, whatever we write in this code is gotta keep up with the technology. NFPA​ is usually every three or four, usually three years. So technology’s gonna change in the market’s gonna change in that​ amount of time, drastically, probably. So, you gotta make sure it’s in the code that way. And, you know, if you could amend it, with some new technology that comes out, you gotta be open to that. Right. And traditionally, fire protection’s a little bit slower to adopt codes and standards, unfortunately, but there’s a​ ​huge opportunity. So, uh, so how, uh, yeah, how did, uh, how did it come about? How did they find you? I mean, you’re the, you’re the chair of N​F​PA ​ ​420, which is kinda.

Melinda Amador​:

Crazy, right? It is.​ ​How did that come? ​Last year when NFPA put out a kind of a public call for interest in the development of the new standard. And as part of putting in, so putting in a kind of support in favor of developing this new standard, you had to say you would be willing to be on the committee, essentially. That’s the way I read it. And so you essentially have to say, you know, yeah, this, and I would be part of this committee, and this is my, you know, background mm-hmm. <affirmative> as a practitioner, um, you know, doing fire safety in Canada. We have our own codes; we have our own national and provincial building codes and fire codes. And ULC in Canada has developed some guides to support the cannabis industry, but certainly, our codes will often call out standards, or we’ll use NFPA standards as guides. So, um, doing as much work as we do right now in the cannabis sector, I really have a localized source of code requirements in relation to cannabis. So I was pleasantly surprised when I got an email back saying we’d like you to chair the committee. I think my, my Canadian background, they maybe saw that <inaudible>

Drew Slocum:

<laugh> yeah, right, right.

Melinda Amador:

Supporting the development of the standards.

Drew Slocum:

A little bit controversial here, even though most have some sort of law around it. But, hopefully, No, that’s great. And I know code next​ ​is obviously big in that sector, right? They found an opportunity to really, to, to push into that, um, industry. And it, it’s been, it’s been great for them as well. And they’ve kind of made a little niche for themselves being a fire protection engineer for that, that kind of, you know, that sort of industry.

Melinda Amador:

Yeah, we were, we actually had​ ​a consultant that operates in​ ​the states that had a client that was moving up and doing a project in Canada originally, and they reached out to us, kind of cold called and said, Hey, is this something that you could support my client with? And we ended up hitting it off ​- ​great calls. We were able to kind of take that client and help support them and find a space in Canada for their product. And, and that really just got the ball rolling. And, my analogy is kind of like someone, someone threw us the ball, and we just ​ran ​with it, like we kind of recognized, Yeah, that’s, that’s good. Cannabis was growing, and it was a really great fit because it is the building code, the building and fire code consulting kind of building code is one side of the compliance approach, and fire code is another side, but in this case, the fire code’s a really big driving factor, the design, and operation of the space. And, with my background in chemical engineering, it’s a really fun space to work in because the technology, as you said, like change is very, they’re changing their solvents, <laugh> it seems like every other month. Oh, really? Well, and so it’s always kind of an opportunity to, uh, kind of strategically think about how the code would apply, and they can use existing facilities or what solve, you know, what

Drew Slocum:

Solve, sorry to interrupt, but what solvents are they​ ​​using​? ​ ​Interesting, right? I thought it was like a butane thing or something.

Melinda Amador:

So there’s​ ​butane and, and propane kind of blends that are being used as a solvent. I think that’s what’s become more popular. ​You know, three or four years ago, we saw a lot more requests for​ ​ethanol, kind of our typical liquid solvents. We’re seeing a lot more of what I would call LPG or hydrocarbon extraction. Oh, interesting. And, it’s regulated differently province by province, um, because LPG or hydrocarb are often regulated​ ​under the gas code that’s similar. Okay. In the states, you kind of have the gas code. Sure. So in Canada, that’s actually a different jurisdiction. ​So it’s a totally different code framework​ ​when you start introducing LPG to your site. And, um, so that’s been, that’s been really cool to navigate as a code, a really fun puzzle​ ​to figure out.

And again, as you know, as we progress through this, um, industry in time, we kind of feel like we kind of have to invent an approach. We’ve gotta pull together four or five different codes and piece them together for this scale for, for this volume and, and process. And I think the NFP ​420 is such a valuable resource to​ ​the industry because you kind of take away that puzzling, we have all of the codes, we just don’t have a framework, someone navigates those in a consistent and effective way. And it, yeah. If we don’t have the framework, then you’re relying on your local authority to be comfortable with it and figure it out, or you’re relying on, you know, your engineer who might be seeing it for the first time to figure it out, have consistency as an industry and, and there’s more likelihood we could have gaps.

Drew Slocum:

Yeah. If you don’t want to see, I think the committee’s made up of, you know, a wide variety, you know, from, from obviously the cannabis industry as well as fire protection as engineers and different manufacturers. So​ ​it was cool to see that they’re trying to make a​s​ broad​ a​ range and​ ​stakeholders as possible on that​, too.

Melinda Amador: Absolutely.

Drew Slocum:

With that, right?

Melinda Amador:

So yeah, we’ve got quite a large committee. We’ve got about 50 people. Wow. On the standard, which is exciting that there’s Engagement and interest coming from all different​ ​aspects of​ ​fire protection and life safety, I think is fairly unique to cannabis is that ​they​ are contributing to the co-development, with the most experience usually coming from, the illegal operations originally, you know, from the spaces where it wasn’t, it wasn’t permitted. And now we’re in a legalized space, and certainly, in the codes development space, we’ve seen, you know, great recognition and acceptance and welcoming to people ​to ​help us build these codes, help us to understand your process, help us to the products so that we can make sure it’s being regulated appropriately and safely. And so that it helps to legitimize, um, the entire market, and it helps to kind of the space and let everybody, um, join and participate, and that’s how we’re really gonna get the best standard to be meaningful to the industry.

Drew Slocum:

No, it’s exciting. Uh, do you know when

Melinda Amador ​:

<laugh>,

Drew Slocum:

Right now, you know, <laugh>,

Melinda Amador:

I have a timeline, have any idea? Okay. Yes. Progressive Timeline is published for 20, 25, and 26 of the new standard.

Drew Slocum:

And there’ll be templates​ ​out there at that point, and they’ll, you know,

Melinda Amador​:

It’ll go out for public​ comment. ​All of that will happen before publication, so there’ll definitely be material that’s out there. Nice. certainly, a lot of the states have already done a, a lot of work, you know, where you have legalization​, there’s a lot of experience that we call in the absence of NFPA ​420 in the meantime. Yeah.

Drew Slocum:

I told a couple of the fire protection engineers, I talked to ’em, like, you guys, you should​ ​jump in on this. I mean, if you’re getting that much work from it, I think your knowledge would ​help ​everything out. So, a couple of ’em were open to it and gotta investigate, but I think people are still getting into the process a little, I don’t wanna say it’s confusing, but, you know,  it’s a little daunting. ​But once you’re in it, it, it’s a lot of fun, and you can collaborate with a lot of different individuals, so

Melinda Amador:

It is, it is, and I’ve only ever ​met in, uh, COVID times, so I haven’t had the opportunity to, you know, experience the in-person.

Drew Slocum:

Right.

Melinda Amador:

Operation and meeting format.

Drew Slocum:

I like the remote style. That’s exciting. I just got out in the remote, the ​COVID times too. And, it’s a lot easier to make the meetings and <laugh>, you know, I feel like there’s​ Iinspect Point and the Fire Protection podcast, we’ll be at the NFP​A in Boston, ​and it’ll be good to see people on the committees that, you know, I’ve been seeing virtually for years.

Melinda Amador :

Right. Exactly. Exactly. We’re getting a lot done, and I think it’s probably moving much more in terms of standards development, having the opportunity to do it remotely, and having the opportunity to kind of get everybody together a little bit more easily. I really like to kind of see everybody​.

Drew Slocum:

Yeah, right.

Melinda Amador:

You know, have a chance to, to get to know them, and really make those connections because that’s another big part of​ ​being part of the standards development process is it’s just such a great network​.​

Drew Slocum:

Yep.

Melinda Amador:

I’​m ​so motivated and engaged in ​the ​industry, and it​ ​kind of, you know, just gets you more excited​.​​

Drew Slocum:

Yeah. Yeah, it’s super niche.

Melinda Amador:

Up for it,

Drew Slocum:

​P​roviding value to the public. Right. So it’s a lot of fun. Right. And especially this one. Yeah.

Melinda Amador:

Um, yeah.

Drew Slocum:

​Have you seen any interesting, like fire protection design methods? I mean, I’m just envisioning some detection systems, fire alarms, obviously, but maybe some crazier detection systems to detect heat at a certain​ ​overload​?

Melinda Amador:

Right,

Drew Slocum:

Uh, functionality. And is it just sprinkler suppression, or is there any, like, crazy gas suppression or gases suppression or

Melinda Amador:

What, what have you certainly seen​?

Drew Slocum:

​So ​far?

Melinda Amador:

Certainly, so there are some applications where we’ll see some kind of special suppression system, usually more on the deluge sprinkler side.

Drew Slocum:

​Oh wow.​Versus really,

Melinda Amador:

Yeah. Versus, you know, a chemical suppressant approach. ​One of the things that are kind of associated with the hydrocarbon extraction that you were talking about that we see more and more is more of,  it’s called like an extraction pod or an extraction booth. So, what we’re seeing and what’s kind of becoming more codified, depending on where you are right now, is ​it ​looks kind of like a paint spray booth, or it looks like a kind of a walk-in fume hood where you’re doing the hydrocarbon extraction and that enclosure, whether it’s kind of designed in-house or whether you’re getting a listed assembly for that product, it usually will have ​L detection for your gases. ​It will have additional ventilation. ​We’ve seen some kind of flame detection approaches in these bases as well. So you’re really kind of isolating the hazard in ​a way, so it’s not like you, and again, it kind of suits well the crafts, right? ​You have one unit that can be operated by one or two people, maybe in a booth. You might have two units scale, you can confine it to a room, and you can design your protection system, really focus on that room, and,  really, I guess focus all of those protection features in that space, so you’re not redesigning the entire building. Yeah. You don’t need a water supply in excess of what you might normally need for the entire building.

Drew Slocum:

Right.

Melinda Amador:

And it kind of​ s​uits the scale for cannabis right now. You can’t really translate that into a bulk production space.

Drew Slocum:

Right. That’s more on, though, right? That’s not on the,

 

Melinda Amador:

That is

Drew Slocum:

Growing unique.

Melinda Amador:

Yeah. Definitely not cultivation. That’s on the extraction side, the processing and making oil better than Yeah. Protein,

Drew Slocum:

Which is obviously, it’d be a little different for​ ​cannabis, but in a similar fashion. Yeah.

Melinda Amador:

It’s​ ​similar in that it’s going to have, you know, dedicated ventilation. It’s going to have classified electrical devices; it’s going to have detection and monitoring. You’re going to have, um, <inaudible>, right? You’re gonna have crash bars or kind of panic hardware, the right direction, et cetera.

Drew Slocum:

Yeah. Interesting. Oh, I’m​ ​really excited to see as this​ as it progresses, and you guys, uh, you know, push the standard along. ​Well, I wanted to make this a shorter podcast since it’s a proposed standard. I just wanted to obviously introduce it on ​420, which is kind of fun. Usually, at the end of the podcast, I dunno if you’ve heard ’em before, but we do something called the quick response round where I fire a couple of questions at you. ​Essentially, it’s random questions that you don’t know are coming ​to learn a little bit more about you and, obviously, the topic. So,​ ​we’ll​ ​kind of end off of that​. ​Have you ​been in any walkthroughs of a facility?​ Zia?​ What’s the craziest story?

Melinda Amador:

The Zia story,

Drew Slocum:

Obviously, don’t give names or any of that, but, um,

Melinda Amador:

Oh, man. Um, I’m trying to, I’m trying to think now,

Drew Slocum:

Are there any facilities that you’ve seen where or individual, see Yeah, I could just imagine, right? <laugh>

Melinda Amador:

Some of the, I mean, certainly honestly, a lot of the cannabis, they’re, they’re really tight. They’re, Oh, nice. They’re being very careful. It is really​, ​really clean; it’s really organized. ​Any of the spaces that we’ve seen have been lovely. Um, there, there have been some spaces that we’ve seen, they’ve taken them over so quickly that there’s been, you know, old equipment in the space, kind of in a back room that there was one, they had this kind of big green hopper that went down into the room, and then the piping just stopped. ​And I asked, I was like, Hey, what, you know, what’s up with that <laugh>? Yeah. And, uh, they had no idea. They had no idea they’d taken the space over like a year ago, and they were already kind of in full production​. Everything again moved so quickly. ​They had just kind of bought the building, as in ​only ​cleaning up their part of it, and That’s great. Went about their business. Yeah. But ultimately, all the spaces we’ve been in have been really​ tight.​

Drew Slocum:

That’s good. That’s good to hear. You know, you kinda think of  the stories out there of, you know, I don’t know,​ ​people have a field day with this topic, so,

Melinda Amador:

Oh, man. Well, and I mean, certainly, we’ve seen a lot of horror stories.

Drew Slocum:

Yeah.

Melinda Amado​r:

​We haven’t been involved directly in a lot of those kinds of​ ​stories that we see are, you know, not operating within the code.

Drew Slocum:

Interesting. Interesting. Yeah.​ ​next question. So I know you did some fire testing and code consulting prior. I see you’re involved in ​foam. Oh, yeah. <laugh>. Did you ever get, did you ever get to see a foam mattress fire test?

Melinda Amador:

Oh, yeah. Part of my fourth-year project was testing mattresses in a furniture calver meter. So we were kind of comparing Cone Calorimeter​ ​foam test results to the furniture scale test and trying to see if we could do the cone calorimeter test to get an equivalent furniture Cal result, just because of the size, it’s a lot easier to burn a four inch by square of foam versus, you know, a full-size mattress.

Drew Slocum:

Interesting. Yeah. I always thought that would be the craziest fire test to see. I’ve seen some storage tests up here in Rhode Island, but never. Yeah. Foam ones just, it’s just,

Melinda Amador​:

Oh, yeah, we just need a mattress. It was, it was, it was nuts because it took, we couldn’t light it. We, we couldn’t actually get it to ignite the, um, with the test standard approach. Yeah. Because it was a fire-resistant foam.

Drew Slocum:

Yeah. Yeah.

Melinda Amador:

So we had a propane torch that we were just like, oh my gosh, for about 20 seconds until it melted enough. Oh, wow. That we got a pool fire, and then it

Drew Slocum:

Just, and then it took off. Lit

Melinda Amador:

Up. Yeah. It was a good one. <laugh>.

Drew Slocum:

That’s crazy. Uh, all right, last question​. Somebody told me to ask you this. ​What’s your favorite nomenclature of a strain out there? I don’t know if you’ve seen it <laugh> ​or ​how involved you are

Melinda Amador:

Now? There’s

Drew Slocum:

Some crazy ones out there.

Melinda Amador​:​​​

​It‘s such a creative industry, and it’s​ really fun, and it’s cleverer. I don’t really have any particular product or brand or name that I can like push <laugh>, but I always, I always liked, I always liked, uh, when they, when they have dabs when they call products dabs. I just think it’s funny. It reminds me of, like, bingo or dancing or something. It’s just such a fun,

Drew Slocum:

The kids’ drawings there, right?

Melinda Amador:

Yeah.

Drew Slocum:

<laugh> the ink. That’s funny.

Melinda Amador:

Yeah.

Drew Slocum:

Well, ​let’s wrap it up here. I guess. Where​ ​can people find​ you? obviously, go to nfpa.org, and go to the code standard​ 4​20, but is there anywhere to find you just for the listenership if they ​have ​questions?

Melinda Amador:

Yeah. you can always email me. It’s mamador​@​code​next.ca,

Drew Slocum:

Yeah. Well, again, thanks for coming so much on, in, in short timeframe, and looking to get some good traction. ​Everybody has fun with it, and it’s one of the biggest problems in the industry of how we protect these spaces.

Melinda Amador:

It really is, I really appreciate you reaching out and bringing these standards. It’s very exciting. And yeah, as much as it’s, um, as much as it’s kind of funny that we named the Standard ​420, it does really highlight a need in the industry, and it is a really, it’s quite a serious topic, and I’m glad that it’s getting ready and it’s becoming more legitimate and legalized, and we can kind of move forward on making it a safe space. And​ ​it doesn’t need to be taboo,

Drew Slocum:

So it’s, yeah,

Melinda Amador:

Totally really exciting. Totally. Yeah.

Drew Slocum:

Well, thanks again, Melinda.

Melinda Amador:

Thank you so much.

Drew Slocum:

This has been episode ​420 of the Fire Protection Podcast, powered by Inspect ​Point. I appreciate the time today, and the listen​. it was a really fun episode to learn about a new topic out there, ​ ​the new standard, and the NF​PA​ case development. So, please pass it along, and we’ll see you again next time. Thanks.