The Fire Protection Podcast Episode 42, NFPA Expo & The State of Fire Protection – Part 1

st is John Mackey from the Mackey Group. John has been on the podcast three times. This is actually his third time being on the podcast. And he’s one of my mentors getting into fire protection, who really promoted us at Inspect Point to push the industry and technology forward. John and I met up at NFPA a few weeks back in Boston. It was really good to see people out there. It'd been three years since San Antonio at NFPA, and a lot had happened in that three-year time. You got the pandemic; you got economic different conditions and different fires starting to happen, like lithium-ion batteries becoming more prevalent. Anyway, it was good to catch up with John and give some highlights from NFPA and, um, yeah, it's good to do this industry talk to see where the industry's at and where we're moving ahead. So, I appreciate your listenership, and please share, subscribe, and like whatever you wanna do. I did break this up into two episodes since we talked so long, so there'll be a part one and a part two, but, um, yeah, thanks again. Hope you enjoy it.

Drew Slocum: 
All right, here we go. All right. Thanks, John. For, for joining me. This is what, the third time?

John Mackey:
Third time? I think Drew, it's, uh, been a while. We haven't done one in about a year, but, uh, yes. It's, uh, I think, our third or fourth time for

Drew Slocum: 
Sure. Yeah. Yeah. It's, uh, it's exciting. I saw you a few weeks ago at NFPA, and that was super exciting to obviously see you, your wife joined you on your little vacation thing too. So that was, it was probably fun seeing the Northeast and getting up here and enjoying the summer. Right.

John Mackey:
It was, you know, um, being in this industry for, what, 15, 16 years and traveling, you know, to every conference you can think of, and customer events, and you name it. My wife, until recently, was unable to make those trips, and now she's able to. And so it was the first NFPA she was at, it was an opportunity for her to see some old friends. We caught up with Kames, uh, GOBA, and Pamela. One night for drinks and dinner. And then all the names and people I refer to, through conversations with her, she got to meet a lot, a lot of 'em, obviously, you got an opportunity to see her, as well. So, it was good. And, you know, there's a lot to do in Boston. I love the city, and we had a great time over the weekend.

Drew Slocum: 
Yeah. There was a lot of buzz there. I mean, the Red Sox were in town. I mean, they're obviously, Red Sox are always halfway decent. The Celtics were there. Paul McCartney was there one night. And what else was going on, oh, the US Open was there last week, so Yeah.

John Mackey:
Yeah. A lot of Buzz <laugh>. Yeah.

Drew Slocum: 
Uh, and it's close to me too. It was obviously NFPA, you know, I'll do an intro to this, but essentially I wanna recap NFPA and just kind of what's going on in the industry. But, NFPA being from Boston, it's coming home, having it at the convention center there. So

John Mackey:
It was great. I, I was really, really, pleased with the whole week. I thought that the first conference in two years for us to get back together was perfect. Great city. I was really impressed with the optimism. Everyone I talked to, from manufacturers to engineering firms to contractors, talked about the strength of the industry, how busy they were, the growth opportunities they saw regarding new products that were going to new markets, and hazards. It just had a different feel this year. And maybe it's because we haven't been in there for two years, but it had a different feel this year than it did prior to Covid and the Pandemic. I think the markets have changed, and it just shows that the industry's growing, and it was really fun to be a part of.

Drew Slocum: 
Yeah, it was, we were at the last one in San Antonio. It was three years ago. It was crazy, and I don't think it was supposed to be in Vegas the next year, but, and then obviously, that didn't happen, but, yeah, there, it was. I think it was my fourth or fifth NFPA, maybe fourth. I think everybody's obviously happier to see people, but, yeah, a lot in the industry's changed. The pandemic's really done a number in both a positive and a negative way on the industry. Right. There's been a lot of growth, but there's been, you know, you got the manufacturing and supply issues now, which kind of who dominates at least the trade show. Obviously, the conference and the technical meetings and all that. Those are always great. And NFPA had to transition, you know, I'm on a newer standard, but even a lot of the older standards they had to transition to, you know, the different styles of holding meetings. Essentially. They've gone to teams, you know, with everything right now.

John Mackey:
Yeah. I think it's reflective of how we all changed ways of running our businesses. Right. Yeah. And, although we, we really like to be face to face and, you know, share stories and catch up, in order to continue with the work and how things get done, you know, we're gonna have to use Teams and Zoom and all the other programs that have truly blossomed through Covid <laugh> Yeah. In order to keep things moving forward.

Drew Slocum:
Yeah. Zoom, zoom went down yesterday in the morning, and I was having a panic attack cuz I had, you know, the whole company's on Zoom <laugh>, and we have, you know, demos that we're showing and it was literally back up in 20 minutes. But, you Google it, and like, Twitter's exploding with Zoom, and I mean, there are other platforms you can obviously use, but that's how you meet these days. But I think, and even with NFPA technical committee, they get a lot more engagement. It might not be the engagement, you know, the face-to-face that's, I feel like a little better a lot of times. But it's, you get more people on a lot of those meetings.

John Mackey:
Absolutely. Right. Because one, to travel to a tech committee meeting or any other committee meeting takes time, right? I mean, let's say it's a half day in and half day out, so that's a day, and then you're at the meeting for a couple of days. No one's got time for that. And if you can jump on a Zoom call and participate, one saves money and time and allows more people the opportunity to get engaged, which I think is more important overall. Right. At the end of the day, especially when you look at how the processes kind of flow through the NFPA committees, that's about input.

Drew Slocum: 
Yeah.

John Mackey:
Yeah. Right. And you need to make sure that you've got, you know, the industry engaged as you're tackling some of these codes and standards.

Drew Slocum: 
Yeah. And you need a, a, a good variety of, uh, of, of stakeholders in those code processes. I see it in NFPA 915. They've done a great job getting many different people on there mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I feel like, you know, maybe in the past, and I think it still happens that way, where whoever's got the most money within the industry is kind of dominating some of those code cycles. But I think NFPAs have done a lot better job of getting a variety of people, some of the younger generations as well, into there. And, you know, there's a lot of knowledge from the older generations that you can't lose, but you also need to fill the gaps where people are retiring and rolling off. So you kind of have to have that transition period, to kind of keep it going.

John Mackey:
So I agree. And I think one thing I've learned, I'm getting more involved in the, the development of, of the codes, just given my business and the things I get exposed to participating, you know, with the FSSA and, and the committees I'm at there with regard to marketing and maybe the conference form itself, I'm on the board for NAFA, so I get to see the industry from a number of different angles. And then what I truly see happening with the way that codes are developed, with the NFPA is, I agree with you, yes. You've got some of them, the earlier generation folks still actively involved, and now they're running these committees. But the younger folks, the next generation, are now coming into the process, which I think is very important. And two, the codes themselves, even though the main push of the code won't change, let's use, for example, NFPA 25 and test and inspect, but there are clauses that are now starting to come into the code that starts to set the code up for the future. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, five years ago, seven years ago, you and I used to have conversations about how to change this code and steer it down this path. Right. And there were people that were involved in the committee at that time just said, nah, we're gonna continue to hold true with what we've always done. Right. Right. And that next generation is now coming in and, and really starting to slowly but, you know, influence where the code will be heading over the next few cycles.

Drew Slocum: 
Yeah. The code, I think  NFPA moved, I think it's a little slow getting them out, you know, every three years. But I think the adoption amongst the jurisdictions is probably more there's probably a little bit more of an issue there, cuz I  just ran into it and in New York City recently where, you know, I was on the fire code committee or helped a little bit with the new New York City fire code and, you know, they just adopted the new standard, and it was, you know, I think NFPA 25 went to 2014, and I'm like, come on, what? Like, why wouldn't you go to a 2020 or at least a 2017 version? And there's actually some, there are some pretty big changes from, from 11 to those later standards.

And,  it's better for the industry, it's better for building owners, it's better for fire protection contractors, better for many. You know, I think it's the adoption with the AHJs I think, and I'd be interested to see,  I've only been involved in that process, but how does it happen at the state level, and why don't they go with a newer version versus stick 10 years behind? And Canada, Canada's got a similar problem where they're, I think they're further behind in like Ontario, so. Right. it's interesting how it happens. 

John Mackey:
It really is, and I think that you know, obviously the state fire marshals and the local jurisdictions, you know, control how they're gonna adopt and manage those codes in there, in, in those jurisdictions. I think that the other, you know, influencers, if you will, FM Global, the insurance companies, Zurich, Aon, the underwriters, have a lot more influence. And I think that we see their influence really coming through in, in some of the newer construction. Right. How do we Yes. You know, how are we constructing warehouses and how are we protecting them with sprinklers, right? How do we, you protect, and it made us try goods, but then how do you protect, you know, a frozen warehouse and, you know, not only from a sprinkler perspective and, and you know, freeze protected, sprinkler heads and devices, but now bringing in more, air sampling systems and, they're looking at it from a holistic perspective and not just this one single piece of equipment. So, although that municipality might be 10 years behind the code, that new building is built with the newest technology. Yes. Right. And that will then influence the next building and the next building, and the next building. So I think that's a positive, again, it's not gonna change the world overnight <laugh>. Yeah. Uh, but it does set the tone for where we're going and moving things forward.

Drew Slocum: 
Yeah. I've seen insurance be heavily involved in the design process a lot of times, but FM's got there on the ITM side, um, but I feel like they're the only ones involved on the ITM side. None of the other insurers, you'd think they would care more about the maintenance of fire protection system to make sure they're working versus, I mean, it's really up to the jurisdictions, and I mean, the insurance cares if there's an issue, but, I wish insurers got more involved in the ITM side. Yep. So, yep.

John Mackey:
I'd support that. Yep.

Drew Slocum: 
So what, what other, what other key takeaways, you know, obviously everything's doing halfway decent in fire protection. What, any other big takeaways you saw?

John Mackey:
No, I think, I mean, I'm at a point to, you know, manufacturers say they're busy. Engineering firms are saying they're busy. Contractors are saying they're busy. And, and, you know, again, that was for some of that optimism coming from that growth. Uh, let's look at it from the engineering perspective and the projects that they're working on, and every engineering firm I talk to says they just need more engineers. <laugh>. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Um, because they can't keep up with the projects that they're coming across. Doesn't matter if you're a regional guy in the northeast, a national guy, or a global guy like Jensen Hughes. I mean, it's, uh, every engineering firm, uh, seems to be one, screening for talent and, uh, two, and do all they can to, to stay in front of the projects.

Uh, which is good because that sets the foundation for the contractor base. And when you talk to the contractors, you know, they're staying there take, they've never been busier. They're taking on as much work as they can. Um, and the only things, the two things that are slowing them down are one, supply chain issues and the ability to, uh, or inability to get their hands on product, uh, and extended lead times from, uh, the manufacturers and supply other suppliers. And I think the biggest challenge that our industry's facing is around labor, skilled labor. And we talked, just made a reference about the engineering community, but, you know, break it down to skilled technicians, fire alarm, sprinkler extinguisher, special hazards, um, and fire's not any different than the challenges that HVAC has seen, or plumbing or, you know, uh, pipe fitting.

So it just highlights that, uh, uh, there is an opportunity for us to find different ways to one, uh, attract talent to the industry, and two, um, develop them for careers in fire protection. Yeah. You know, you come in as an apprentice, and how do you work your way up to field superintendent, service manager, design manager to sales, general manager, and maybe even owning your own business? Yeah. Um, I think that there's a great pathway. I mean, you and I have been able to, you manage good careers in, in the space, and I think that there's plenty of opportunities for people that, uh, are willing to open the door and, and explore it.

Drew Slocum: 
Yeah. It's interesting. Um, you know, the labors, oh, it was a big piece before the pandemic, and then it kind of just accelerated it. Um, and I know every trade's having issues, but, you know, they keep pointing back to, I, I don't know what the root cause of it is. And I mean, maybe we just don't have enough people to do the work in the US, I don't know. I almost, I, I, everybody says, uh, no, nobody wants to work anymore or whatever. I, and, and that could have been it for a good year or so, but like, we're, we're a good two years plus after this. And I don't know; we just don't have enough people to do a lot of the direct labor stuff. And, uh, I think.

John Mackey:
I did a blog post last month about the labor issue and what's going on, and some of the research I came across actually took us back to the recession in 2008 and 2009. And the construction industry as a whole said that we lost two and a half million jobs during that recession. Oh, wow. Um, and so when we lost those jobs and came out of recession, there weren't people to do the work.

Drew Slocum: 
Right.

John Mackey:
Right. And we are still lagging behind that growth from that today. Right. So, generally speaking, there are about a million million and a half jobs still in construction trades that aren't filled. Wow. Wow. Right. They're there. Yeah. But there's not a people that aren't there to take 'em. So go back 10 years ago when those people would be coming into the trades to be trained to learn a skill, they're not there. And so now they pursue other fields. And so as they have kids and their families grow, those kids are gonna go elsewhere. Yeah. Um, because those influencing factors aren't there anymore. So I think it's an opportunity for the industry, um, in our case, fire protection, to really start to understand how we go back to a grassroots campaign. How do we find, you know, opportunities to bring more people in and show 'em how you can manage your career in fire protection?

Yeah. Interesting. So it's interesting, you know, I think we, it obviously we're together in NAFED in Indianapolis, and you had a chance to meet my son, <laugh>, Nolan. And he's in the process of starting a software company but is focused on the trades. Right. And, uh, I know he, you've talked to him and, and kind of gave him some feedback and some pointers to think through as he does this, and I appreciate that. Yeah. but you know, he was a fire extinguisher technician in college, and as he was traveling with his, you know, sprinkler coworkers and his alarm coworkers, they're all talking about, you know, how do I get that next level of training? How do I, you know, make a couple of bucks, you know, for the next job? Or, you know, how do I get a different route if I'm an extinguisher tech?

And, you know, there were limited resources for those trades to determine the next opportunity. How do I get trained and develop and, and learn so I can manage a career in the space? Uh, and so the intent of his, his website, his company, which is called Active Resume, active hyphen resume.com, is to do that, is to help connect technicians to those resources to help find, you know, where, how they get trained, where the opportunities are at, where's that next job in their market to help them advance their career, et cetera, et.

Drew Slocum:
Cetera. So, is it like a, like kind of like a LinkedIn or Zoom, or is it LinkedIn? Yeah, LinkedIn or there are a couple of other ones as well, but for the trade industry kind of thing?

John Mackey:
Yeah. Essentially that's what it's doing. I mean, you know, it's, it's connecting people with resources to manage a career. And it's, you know, in his context, it's skilled labor. Um, and I see that that platform is probably gonna expand beyond fire, but that's what he knows. Fire <laugh>. Yeah. So is that three months now? And, uh, so far, so good

Drew Slocum: 
And a half, so, you know, focus on fire. That's all we need right now. I don't hear about anything else. <laugh> No, honestly, I mean, I've tried to do small improvements on the house we bought prior, the year before the pandemic, and I can't get contractors here. It's like either they're 50 years old plus, or they're like apprentices. Like, they're like new. It's like there's no one in that, you know, 30 to the 45-year range that's doing, I don't know, there's some, but it's like such an opportunity and maybe, yeah, they went, they probably went on different career paths after it makes total sense as the recession potentially did that.

John Mackey:
Yeah. It's interesting. Right. Um, I, the markers, and I think history just showed, you can look at certain markers, certain economic events that happened Yep. That changed the trajectory of society and certain things that people pursued. Um, go back to, you know, the 2000 Y2K, and all the IT jobs are created.

Drew Slocum: 
<laugh>. Yeah. Yeah.

John Mackey:
Right. Um, and then, of course, we get through it and didn't really turn out to be much, but nonetheless, it put people down the path for IT careers and obviously, like at the size of, you know, technology and Yeah, exactly. Everything it's doing to influence our lives today. So,

Drew Slocum: 
Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of technology, what were the, uh, you know, I, I, I've got a few myself, I'll, I'll throw out there, but I, I put a blog or, uh, an email blast that every, everybody saw the other day maybe. But, uh, the, any new technology out there that was interesting. I mean, it's been three years since we've had 'em. And, and I feel like NFPA, I remember Christina Francis, who's now with Tesla, said this is, and I think we were on it, I don't know, five, six years ago when we were first at NFPAs, go down row 100, and you find some pretty cool new technology. But was there anything else out there that, that you thought was pretty nifty?

John Mackey:
Nothing really jumped out and got my attention to, like, where I was pulling people to the booth that said, you just gotta, you know, you just gotta check this out. Um, I think that, um, when you look at the big OEMs, I didn't see anything come out of them specific to something new and specific to fire. Some of them were pushing their smart building technologies and how to integrate the whole system. I'll leave them nameless right now, <laugh> mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, to, to protect the innocent. And then, um, I do see obviously a lot of conversation around what's going on with AF and PFA s and PFOs, um, and alternative solutions, uh, with regard to, um, other types of agents and how those can be applied. Uh, again, some of that has to be tested yet, and, uh, we will let that kind of, uh, work its way through the system.

But, um, I did come across, and maybe you can remember the name of the company I was talking to, the guys at Viking, um, specifically to the detection portfolio. And I was surprised to see Viking used to draw, obviously, a traditional sprinkler house, you know, really good at what they do regarding sprinkler technology and how they manage water. Um, but I was really impressed with what they've done in the detection space. Yeah. How they've built out a really nice detection portfolio. Um, and one of the guys that were in the booth, um, was, I think, the company was called Service Tech from Germany.

Drew Slocum: 
Okay.

John Mackey:
Um, I may have the name of the company wrong, uh, I apologize. But, um, really, and these were tiny, tiny little devices, <laugh>, uh, no, you know, small than the palm of your hand. Uh, and the series of 'em put together to make, you know, really robust detection solutions. Um, and the concepts were really simple. It was more of a plug-and-play type environment. And I'm like, wow, this is pretty cool just to keep it that simple. Right. So then, what was interesting to me, and again, I'm not the engineer of the technician, so you have these, you know, really nice stainless steel wrapped, you know, infrared devices Yeah. And all these big cameras and Right. And you're nice and robust, and then you come to this little device that's no bigger than a postcard or a business card. Oh, wow. And you're like, wait a minute, five of those in a string. Yeah. You know, it can give me just as strong detection capabilities as that camera <laugh>.

Drew Slocum: 
Interesting.

John Mackey:
Uh, it was very interesting. Again, I don't, I apologize for not knowing all the technical details about it. If they are listeners, you know, I'm encouraging 'em to go to the Viking website and, and, and take a look at what they have for detection. But, um, to me, it got my attention. I'm like, okay, that's, that's, that's pushing the envelope.

Drew Slocum: 
Yeah. Mike, Mike,

John Mackey:
That's

Drew Slocum: 
Mike Kvo, who's I think ahead of the Viking Safety Group, or, and, and I know he's been doing it for, I dunno, a couple of years now. Yep. And, and, and is really, is pushing that direction. Um, and a lot of them, the stuff's coming maybe over from Minimax in, in Germany as well. Um, but yeah, I, I think there needs to be, yeah. There's, I mean, 10 years ago, there was some great detection, but the smaller you make it, the easier it is to get out there and install the, I think, you know, detections. Yeah. I feel like suppression is suppression, but with detection, there's a lot more runway almost. I feel like.

John Mackey:
I mean, what did we learn early on, uh, regarding the strength of detection, getting those, capturing those fires at the incipient stage?

Drew Slocum: 
Yeah. Yeah.

John Mackey:
Right. And if you could start to create an AI or smart type de detection capabilities that can tell you here's how this piece of equipment's supposed to run, here are the temps, here's the revolutions, here's whatever. Right. And it captures that. And that data starts to get a little wonky. Yeah. And someone starts to operate outta spec; something's gonna happen with that device, it's gonna run hot. Right. It's gonna valve function; it's gonna cause a problem. Yeah. So let's capture that early. Let's capture at the time that off-gases, as we talked about with batteries, but let's capture when off-gases start to come off, and there's some smoke coming off before you see fire. Right. Just kind of, and they make them small enough that they can be applied in a number of different applications and not necessarily these, you know, big cameras and you know, these big, you know, visual things that, uh, let's try to find ways to get it simple.

Drew Slocum:
Yeah. and with the, uh, lithium-ion battery fire issue. Right. I don't know this for a fact, and I want to have Christina on here soon, but, uh, to talk about what Tesla's doing, like I, they're already probably starting to do that. Right? Right. Where if they can detect thermo runaway or any sort of thing happening with a lithium-ion battery, they shut it down. They do it. So you don't even have a fire. Right. Don't even care about the suppression if you can get it detected early enough. Um, and I don't know what that is, but, um, yeah, it could be those small detectors, or it could be something to do with the actual battery itself. Right, right. Um, I didn't get to talk to her much cuz she was, she was in Row 100, and she was the one that posted about it, um, about being in Rowe 100. And um, yeah, it was, it was, it was really cool to see, um, what, what Tesla's trying to do. And they're just trying to, you know, it's a big issue out there. That's the probably other than, you know, whatever Elon puts on Twitter or the whole Twitter thing, <laugh>, other than that, it's the fire thing, you know, uh, it, it's fires with their cars and their battery systems. 

John Mackey:
Yeah, it was interesting. Right. So you, in the, on the floor itself, when you worked your way back, uh, to the expo floor, they had those little, uh, train sessions and or, you know, I'll call 'em little breakout rooms. And the room was normally seated, let's say, 25 or 30 seats. I happened to be back there when Tesla was doing their presentation. And this little 30-seat little, you know, breakout room probably had 250 people around it. <laugh>. Wow. Wow. Uh, I was so fond back I couldn't even hear what the speaker was saying, and I couldn't even read his slides because the font was really small. Um, but what was interesting was, and again, this is Tesla out there talking about the smart home, and they were, you know, had the demo of the house, and on the house, they had solar panel shingles, and then those shingles go into a, a battery backup energy storage system.

Oh yeah. Um, you know, that's in the garage, and then you're gonna use that power wall for off hours, uh, power for your appliances in your house and for plugging your car in. Uh, but then some of the, you know, technical quote unquote, I say that in quotes for those who are just listening, the technical experts in our industry saying, you know, well, what happens when your thermal runway in your garage? I don't wanna lose my house <laugh>. Right, right. Um, and so there are some of the naysayers, but again, I think what, you know, um, I commend Tesla for trying to continue to push the envelope regarding how you use this technology safely.

Drew Slocum: 
Yep.

John Mackey:
All right. Yep. And, uh, I think it's only a matter of time before the consumer starts to come around. I mean, where were we 15 years ago before we, you know, conceptually talked about electric vehicles. Um, and yet knowledge's probably one outta every seven or eight cars, depending on what part of the country you live in. Um, people are driving 'em all over the place. So

Drew Slocum: 
I'm looking to do, cuz I have a good sun on my roof, and I thought a few years ago I looked into the Tesla roof and it's, and it's actually not that much money mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, to put a power wall in. Yeah. That's a little more, but I don't need a generator now because I'm in a hurricane alley in the fall. So, um, it kind of makes sense. And then I, I just, with gas prices the way they are now, it's like there's gonna be more lithium-ion batteries, which, if they can solve some of the, I don't think you'll be able to suppress one of those, fires, but if you can detect it, I think that's seems like it's the way, the way it's going.

John Mackey:
Yeah. And that goes, goes back to the earlier point you made. Right. Shut that battery down the second it comes out of the spec. Yes. Right. And make the battery smart. Yeah. And then let it roll to another pack, another cell. Yeah. Um, and put some alert in there to pull that battery pack out so that, you know, there is no risk going forward.

Drew Slocum: 
This is episode 42 of the Fire Protection Podcast powered by Inspect Point. Again, thanks again to John Mackey, for coming on, uh, the episode today. I did break it up into two parts, so the next one will come out soon. Episode 43. We talked a lot about obviously the NFPA convention and expo in Boston a few weeks ago. The second part concerns the industry and where we're headed. But, again, I appreciate the listenership, and please like, and subscribe. See you soon.

 

 

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