Episode Summary
On September 30, 2022, the rules changed for fire sprinkler antifreeze systems. Sean Pearce of Lubrizol joins me to discuss NFPA 13 & 25 updates and how they will affect contractors and building owners moving forward. How do companies test new and old antifreeze moving forward? When are antifreeze systems required to remove and change out to the new UL-Listed products? What design variables are involved when engineering a new fire sprinkler system that is susceptible to the cold? How do you currently analyze your antifreeze testing? Are you grabbing data points to compare? All of these any more are discussed. Watch and listen here.
Lubrizol has created an incredibly informative presentation called Listed Antifreeze for Fire Sprinkler Systems. You can download a copy here.
Timestamps
- 0:15 - Drew's Intro from Antarctica
- 1:39 - Intro from Canada
- 1:54 - Shout out to Troy Life & Fire Safety
- 2:09 - Conversion to Listed Antifreeze
- 3:20 - What is out there?
- 4:17 - Sean, who are you?
- 5:30 - Supply Chain
- 5:50 - NFPA25 and Older Systems
- 7:34 - Is a Dry System Better?
- 9:18 - Will there be a TIA?
- 10:07 - How Many Old Systems are Out there?
- 11:13 - The Contractor Still has the Liability
- 12:05 - Refractometers & other new Tools
- 13:17 - The Field Testing Challenge: it's a Science Experiment
- 16:38 - Huge Challenge for Contractors
- 19:00 - When there were Large Vats of Glycerine!
- 22:58 - ESFR
- 26:50 - What's Next?
- 28:01 - Get Trained
- 29:44 - Sugar & Concrete
- 32:09 - NYC DOB
- 35:43 - Canadian Socks
- 37:55 - Inspection Software Makes it Easy for AHJs
- 39:00 - Fire Sprinklers Save Lives
- 39:40 - Outro
Full Transcript
Drew Slocum:
This is episode 46 of the Fire Protection Podcast, powered by Inspect Point. Today, my guest is Sean Pierce with Lou Bral. Uh, he’s on to discuss, uh, freeze Master and some of the, uh, the fire sprinkler antifreeze that has come out, uh, to the market with all the changes around September 30th of this year to NFPA 25 and NFPA 13 and, and, and how the fire sprinkler industry is gonna deal with, with the antifreeze issues prior and obviously transitioned to the newer listed ones. So, Sean’s a big wealth of knowledge there, and obviously, I’m, uh, I’m all boned up here, but in North America, winter is on its way. So we’ve, you know, a lot of the contractors are out there doing their low point drains and getting everything ready for the wintertime and those dry, dry systems and anything susceptible to freezing. So, uh, a good time to have Sean on and talk about that. He’s a wealth of knowledge about not only the anti
... Read Morefreeze stuff, but CPVC. And in his prior life, he was a fire official in the Toronto area. So, um, it was great to connect with him and, um, yeah, looking forward to everybody listening. Uh, feel free to subscribe, share, like, and, um, now, onto the podcast. Thanks.
Drew Slocum:
All right. We are live, um, in Mississauga, Canada, Ontario. Yeah.
Sean Pearce:
Welcome. Came
Drew Slocum:
Up all the way up here for this.
Sean Pearce:
That’s awesome. Welcome. Welcome to tum.
Drew Slocum:
No, we’re at a, uh, a nice, uh, conference with Troy Life and Fire Safety. So, uh, it was good to see Sean up here. Yeah, good to see you. And, um, thanks for doing this. And I know it’s been a long time coming, and weirdly enough, we’re like a week away from the deadline.
Sean Pearce:
We are. Yeah. Yeah. It’s, it’s coming soon. The whole conversion to listed antifreeze is just around the corner now. Yeah.
Drew Slocum:
Yeah. So what is, I guess, what is the, what is, it’s September 30th did that, that got pushed off for a few years,
Sean Pearce:
So, so Yeah. Originally it was pushed back, so everybody’s had an opportunity to do this. I, I think the the hardest part, uh, though, was not having listed product. Right. So getting manufacturers like ourselves to get through testing and innovation Yep. Uh, to get a product out to market, uh, has been the biggest challenge. Yeah. And, uh, you know, we’re at minus 24 C, and anybody who’s colder than us has viscosity issues. So we’re all fighting the same problems. Yep. Um, as much as, uh, we’re competitors, we’re, we’re all experiencing the same difficulties with Li Antifreeze.
Drew Slocum:
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So like, did you guys at all, or is it kind of still separate?
Sean Pearce:
No, I think it’s all pretty separate. I mean, we’re definitely operating on our own. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, noble, you know, uh, operated on their own and JCI on their own. So there are three listed products in the market now. Yep. Um, the, the two, uh, LFP plus Yep. And the Noble product has better minimum use temperatures than we do. Oh, okay. LFP, um, is a little bit, uh, warmer than us. Yep. Uh, but the only two that don’t have the 20 PSI minimum head pressure penalty. Yep. L F P, the regular LFP Sure. And freeze master. Thank you, guys. Yeah. And then LFP plus and Noble are dealing with that 20 psi minimum head pressure penalty. Oh, I didn’t know. Due to viscosity. Yeah.
Drew Slocum:
Oh, I didn’t know about that. And that makes sense cuz if it takes,
Sean Pearce:
Just takes longer to move it through the piping now, some jelly
Drew Slocum:
Through the pipe. Yeah. You know, it’s not jelly, but
Sean Pearce:
Yeah. Uh, it’s just thicker. Yeah. The viscosity’s thicker, and to get to those lower temperatures, the viscosity goes up, and we are all fighting there.
Drew Slocum:
Interesting. Yeah. Interesting. So, um, so I guess explain for, you know, I know we got right into it, and I’ll hit a lot of this in the intro, but, so, uh, Sean’s here, I guess let’s, let’s give an intro to who you are in your background, <laugh>. Yeah.
Sean Pearce:
Yeah. So, uh, I’m Sean <laugh> and, uh, started my career in fire protection with Toronto Fire Services. Then the Canadian Automatic Sprinkler Association, uh, started then as a consultant. Right. Uh, fire Protection, life Safety Consultant. Uh, worked for the Governor of Ontario and, uh, some contractors in Bermuda. And then, Lu Breal was a customer or customer of mine as well, and I started full time with them. Yep, yep. Uh, and I’m the Fire Protection Business Development Manager, so I was part of a team that worked on Freeze Master. Oh, nice. And then, you know, we’re, uh, Lubrizol is a company, as an organization, is embracing fire protection now more than ever and looking at new products. Yep, yep. Advancing listings and, and different things like that to make it easier to use our products. Right, right. So I have the good fortune of being a part of all of that.
Drew Slocum:
Yeah. Which is a lot of fun. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it’s cool. You guys were one of them, were you the first out to market?
Sean Pearce:
No, sec. Second. LFP was first out.
Drew Slocum:
For some reason. I just know you guys maybe, maybe it’s the branding or messaging or whatever, but
Sean Pearce:
Yeah. You know, I, it like everything supply chain is an issue, and I think that some of them, our competitors are struggling to get material Yeah. To put their product on the market. Right. We’ve been very fortunate that that’s not, hasn’t been as big a concern for us. So there’s good making supply nets, distributing freeze master, and they’d be audited it, you know, if people need it, it’s available.
Drew Slocum:
Gotcha. Gotcha. Um, so back to nf. So NFPA 25, uh, they’re, that’s where it’s the biggest. Right. So you have all these older antifreeze sprinkler systems
Sean Pearce:
Correct. That
Drew Slocum:
Have I unlisted all their antifreeze that has to, I guess, what is the protocol for NFPA 25 to
Sean Pearce:
Test those? So the standards council, you post the fires Yep. Worked with, um, their research body at N F B A. They did a bunch of testing, worked with UL, realized that the these high, uh, high balance, I don’t know, I’m trying to think of the right word to use, but these, these imbalanced antifreeze products Yeah.
Drew Slocum:
Yeah.
Sean Pearce:
We were, uh, had a potential for flash fires. Right. And, uh, and we had a, a fatality, we had a number of injuries in these California Exactly. Trucky. Yeah. And so, they came out with this goal of having listed antifreeze in the market, and that by September 30th, 2022, that listed antifreeze would be available, and you would no longer be able to use regular antifreeze. So, the theory was that everything would be drained, and listed antifreeze would rule the day, uh, October 1st of, of this year. Gotcha. Um, the difficulty in all of that is that it took longer than I think anyone expected for any of us to have a solid listed product available. Right. Uh, we’re still fighting to get to a good freeze point for Yeah. The Canadian market. Right. Um, but there are products on the market now and, and, and, and, and you have to decide if you’re a contractor, is a dry system a better solution or antifreeze, and what freeze point you’re looking at.
Yeah. Um, and then go from there. Now, the 2023 edition of N F B A 25 got, um, some looser language where the date, uh, wasn’t necessarily pushed back, but if you have, um, unlisted antifreeze in a system and it’s testing at the spec, you need for that climate mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you can leave it in until it falls out of spec, then you have to replace it with listed. The dilemma, of course, is that that’s the 2023 edition. So if you’re a contractor and you’ve got a customer who has antifreeze that’s testing in spec, um, but the municipality is using the 2016 edition, Yes. Of N FBA 25. Right. Then as a contractor, you’re gonna have to go to that AHJ and ask for an alternative solution, new technology, and use the current edition of 25. Right. In order to get an allowance to, use that edition. Right. So it’s not a straightforward thing that, because it’s in there, it’s just gonna happen. Right. The local building codes all over North America dictate what edition Yeah.
Drew Slocum:
It’s
Sean Pearce:
Used. Yeah, exactly. And there are some municipalities that say, we’re gonna use the latest, and they’re gonna, they can, they’ve adopted, and that’s the end of it. Gotcha. But most don’t.
Drew Slocum:
So it’s not like the TIA or whatever where s a retro act?
Sean Pearce:
No, it’s not only
Drew Slocum:
For the new
Sean Pearce:
Edition. It’s only for the new edition,
Drew Slocum:
Which will take five years or plus
Sean Pearce:
To get to Absolutely, absolutely. If not more. Right. Right. So the other side of that is even if you put an in and there’s a rumor that the AFSA is trying is think about that. Yeah. Yeah. They can only go back to one edition. That’s so Yeah. It doesn’t get you to where most people are right now. So
Drew Slocum:
It’s not a bad idea, though.
Sean Pearce:
No, no. It, I think it shows good intent for sure. Yeah. Yeah. It makes it easier for other AHJs to accept it.
Drew Slocum:
Yeah. Um, sorry for the background, though. Yeah. Word, word. We’re in a hotel lounge, which is preemptive, uh, or, uh, impromptu, uh, podcast here. Yes. Um, so, um, so 2023 edition, I wonder.
Where, I wonder where the data collection, I’m getting, we, you know, in our platform we grab all of the, you know, antifreeze, uh, spec or you know, what they’re testing at every year. Right. Because it’s on an annual basis. Yeah. So I’m interested to see how many are out of spec and how many antifreeze systems are out there in general. Um, I’d be interested to see the way that’s trending and, and maybe NFPA could utilize some of that information over time. If they’re all coming out of spec, then maybe they push the CIA even faster. Do you know what I mean? Yeah,
Sean Pearce:
Yeah. Potentially. I mean, I, I mean the alternative solution kind of path. Yeah. And using the new technology language from NFPA is a really effective tool, and most, you know, most aged age understand that once it’s in the standard, research went into it and everything else. And so they generally will, will accept it. Um, but so I don’t know if it’s really necessary where I’m going with that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um, one of the other changes in that was that they’ve got language in there now that says that you can use the antifreeze outside of its listing for everything except temperature. So that, so certain viscosity issues and, and other issues ki kind of go away, but Sure. But the contractor still has the liability of making sure the system works. Right. Right. So as much as you’re gonna get a little bit of an allowance in the new 25, Yeah. You, also have a legal responsibility that water is gonna come out of those heads. Right. Right. And so you have to balance all of this when you’re making your decisions about what you’re gonna use. Interesting. Yeah.
Drew Slocum:
How, so how, how do the newer, um, products compare to the older product with Visco? Both viscosity and temperature? Dominion, mainly temperature, but, so I guess you need to packer
Sean Pearce:
In both. Yeah. Viscosity, definite viscosity, and volume. Yeah. Right. So what’s different now is antifreeze, you would buy raw glycerin or glycol, and you’d mix it with a little bit of water and throw one in a system. And so, you know, test it with whatever device you thought you wanted to. And now, with the listed product, that’s all gone. So, in the case of freeze master and L F P, you have to use a refractometer that tests only the refractive index. Wow. Not, you can’t use a brick scale and get a temperature correlation. You have to get the refractive index number Yep. And compare it to the technical data sheet. So most contractors have these scaled devices, well, they don’t work anymore. Interesting. So there’s a lot of calls coming into the service lines for everybody involved in this saying, Hey, this isn’t testing into spec.
And it’s not that it’s not, it’s that it’s the wrong device now. Sure. Sure. Um, and then, uh, Noble’s got their product out in the market now, and they’re asking everybody to use a hydrometer, which is really tough in the field because you’ve gotta have a perfectly flat surface, a test tube with just the right amount of fluid in it. That test tube has a bob in that, you know, the bob has to float in the tube without touching the sides. Oh. Oh gosh. And then you gotta look through the glass and correlate those numbers. And so the way UL has it set up, it’s to two decimal points. And I know I’m physically not capable of trying to take a bunch of markings on two glass, you know, beakers and figure out what those two decimal points are. So, um, field testing has become a challenge.
Drew Slocum:
Totally. Yeah. I can imagine. I’m just trying to picture a fire sprinkler fit or technician <laugh>
Sean Pearce:
Trying, trying to do, it’s like a science experiment. It’s totally a science experiment. Right. And so that, that’s a big challenge. But, uh, well, I think some of the bigger contractors, the PMA guys, the the inspection test guys, they are collecting fluid, uh, refilling whatever they take out with new and taking it back to their office and, and they’ve got, you know, a test bench set up. And that seems to be the best because even the refractive index devices, uh, like the Misco N D A 20 uh, scale, it, it has to be the same temperature as the fluid. So you have to climatize everything so it will temperature Correctly. As long as the fluid and the device have the same temperature <laugh>. So if the fluid is, you know, X and the device is 10 degrees warmer sure. You won’t get a good reading. Wow. So this concept of bench testing with listed antifreeze is becoming more and more popular now.
Drew Slocum:
Interesting. Yeah. It’s, uh, you gotta send it back and, uh, yeah, it’s, it’d be interesting to see the contractor’s inventory, how many systems they have, and how they attack it. Right. Yeah. Over the next few years.
Sean Pearce:
Yeah. And, you know, if you’ve, the other part of this is choosing an antifreeze based on the listing for each product. Right. So the listing has a series of things you must do. So you must pass buyer performance, you must pass certain compatibility tests, a minimum of them, uh, and you, and in that, you get a volume based on how your performance is in, in each test. Okay. So, uh, in, in the case of Freeze Master, we’re the only product that has a 375-gallon ordinary hazard listing. Cause, Oh wow. We kept testing and pushing our volume up. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Uh, and, and you know, Noble’s got a different listing. They’ve got a 40-gallon limit on light hazards, while JCI and Freeze Master have a 500-gallon 40
Drew Slocum:
Gallon. That’s
Sean Pearce:
Not, yeah, it’s nothing. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Right. So when you’re choosing a listed antifreeze, please, please, please read those data sheets. Sure. It’s like choosing a sprinkler head. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. You, you got, you want a 20 by 20 sprinkler head, well, what K factor you’re gonna choose, and what does that mean? All of that is in a data sheet. Same thing now with Annie’s fries.
Drew Slocum:
Yeah. And I’ll, I’ll, I’ll toss it in the video, blog, or whatever you’re Yeah. The nice comparison chart
Sean Pearce:
Help. Yeah. And the comparison chart, I mean, it’s very freeze master centric, of Of course. Cuz it’s coming from us. Yeah. Yeah. But the reality is, the others in
Drew Slocum:
There though.
Sean Pearce:
Yeah. The others are in there, and you’ve gotta go through those lists and figure out what’s the best product view. You, um, currently, freeze masters is the only one listed for use with galvanized pipe. So if you’ve got a system that’s got caulk in it, Huh? There’s only one product you can use based on the listing
Drew Slocum:
Yeah. And gal’s a lot in outdoor applications. Right.
Sean Pearce:
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
Drew Slocum:
Yeah. I wonder why, I guess it just has to it was tested that way.
Sean Pearce:
It exactly. Yeah. Huh. Interesting. So it, it is, um, without doubt, a huge challenge Yeah. For contractors and, if you’re a PMA contractor, it can get really confusing fast.
Drew Slocum:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there is already huge liability with it when all the issues happened. Right, exactly. And, uh, whose fault it was and, you know, it was terrible when it happened and that was 12 years. I think I was just getting into the fire sprinkler at the time when it happened. Yeah. 2008. Yeah. 29. Yeah. It’s crazy. It’s 20, it’s 22, and it’s,
Sean Pearce:
I know, I know. And we’re still dealing with that. Yeah. I, I think it’s just it’s been a really tough development process for everybody involved.
Drew Slocum:
Yeah.
Sean Pearce:
It’s a challenge.
Drew Slocum:
Um, no, that’s crazy. And now there the device is to test it li you do bench testing at the office. Is there, is there listings? Do you have to use a certain specific model? No,
Sean Pearce:
E everybody in their datasheet suggests the best device to use with their products. Right. So we’ve got, uh, three products you can use. Um, go to the data sheet, the Misco device that we suggest; if you’ve got an existing Misco device, they suggest that it can be reprogrammed. So you may not have to buy a new one. Yep. Uh, and you, you need one that has what’s called, in the case of Misco, the ND 20 scale. Okay. Um, it’s not really a scale. It’s just the refractive index. I don’t know why they don’t call it a refractive index. Yeah. But they call it ND 20. Uh, and uh, and then make sure that you fill the, well, uh, follow the instructions from that manufacturer, whatever device you’re using. Clean the surface of that because, uh, these are proprietary mixtures. They have, they have glycerin, they have glycol may have something else in them.
Sure, sure, sure. They’ll leave a film on, Oh, the optical surface. So if you don’t take an alcohol wipe to it when you’re done, you’ll start getting the wrong readings again. Yeah. And, so this is stuff that no sprinkler contractor ever imagined <laugh> that they were gonna have to do. Wow. And these devices aren’t really cheap. So the bench testing thing, if you’re not doing it already as a contractor, it can start to make more sense cuz you can train one person who could fill in a form and give you those results. Yep. And then go from there.
Drew Slocum:
Interesting. Yeah. I remember back going to a few contractors in, uh, the New York area, and there are just big drums and Gly and sitting around Oh.
Sean Pearce:
Absolutely. And they would, they’d be mixing it. Yeah, yeah. With big wooden. Yeah. Big wooden paddle. Yeah. I, yeah. We all saw it. I mean, it is a different world now. Yeah. Right. So it’s all pre-mix only. You can’t talk these systems up. If it falls out of spec, you gotta drain the whole system down and refill it with fresh pre-mix.
Drew Slocum:
You have to have the, um, expansion tank and all
Sean Pearce:
That. Yeah. Yeah. Well, without an expansion tank. Here’s the dilemma. You, your fluid expands, and let’s just say you, you have a pressure relief valve Oh boy. And it’s just spinning antifreeze out onto the ground and down the drain. Yeah. Yeah. Then what’s backfilling it when it contracts its water. So your off Yeah. And when you’re, when you’re testing to three decimal points, you, the window’s very small. Right. So, you know, a little bit of water can, Yeah. It can change the whole thing.
Drew Slocum:
Now I know that when the tragedy happened, there was more concentration and, you know, by the head than maybe where it’s tested. Is there, is there a protocol for freeze master than any of the others where to test?
Sean Pearce:
Yeah. So, so 25 dictates that you test at the riser and then at the end of the line. In the line as well. Okay. And then if the system’s over a specified gallonage, then there’s additional test points Okay. Within the system, you have to collect
Drew Slocum:
From. Interesting. Yeah. Wow. Now they have to have different tubes.
Sean Pearce:
Yeah.
And we’re all asking you to collect, you know, anywhere from a gallon to two gallons of material from each test point. Wow. So you’re not just getting the test tube size at the end; you’re actually drawing enough out. So when you do these tests, it’s really important that you isolate that backflow device. Yep. Right. Stop any water from coming in. Right. Draw out all your fluid, and vent it through your fill cup or something else. Yeah. And then go back and top it all off with fresh fluid before you take that stuff away or open those backflow valves cuz you’re gonna open it and boom, it’s outta spec now.
Drew Slocum:
Yeah. Yeah. Is there do you guys have best practices? Like we,
Sean Pearce:
We have, we have instructions. Everybody’s got instructions. Yeah.
Drew Slocum:
Because I think all that’s important cuz I mean, again, I know contractors have been dealing with it for the last 10 years or settled on what to do. Yep. You know, probably a lot more conversions to dry systems because they don’t even want to deal with it.
Sean Pearce:
Yeah, absolutely. There’s been a lot of that, but dry systems have their own inherent problems. Right. And so corrosion, we meet, so part of the US testing for antifreeze, for list antifreeze is corrosion performance. And we don’t just meet that based on who we are as a Yeah. As a chemical company and, and involved in motor vehicle fluids for so long. Right. We, we used our metallurgy team, and we far exceed those, uh, Oh wow. Those requirements. So, we have a really in-depth corrosion package in freeze master.
Drew Slocum:
Interesting. Huh Huh. Um, what else am I not thinking of? Obviously, it’s compatible with plays master. Yeah. Now is it compatible with all No? You said you had the lifting. Yeah. Is there any like, probably not copper,
Sean Pearce:
Right? Yeah. Copper’s in there too. Oh yeah. It’s standard, it’s part of the standard compatibility test from UL. Um, things like EPDM, gas, <inaudible>, all of that is part of that standard package.
Drew Slocum:
Wow. Interesting. Now, um, I had to deal with one back in the day when I was in Viking, but the e s systems with, uh, there’s prob that was like, it was going by the wayside, but I, I remember some contractors having to deal with it and it was, uh, it was crazy, it was more of a glycol mixture, but it was specific to that application. And I don’t think, I mean, they’d have to take that whole thing out, but I Is there anything happening with the ESF
.Sean Pearce:
No. So ESFFFR still gets to use the glycol really a mixture. Oh.
Drew Slocum:
They still, because
Sean Pearce:
It’s the list of products that haven’t been approved for use with ESFFR heads. So ESFFR is in a kind of a world of its own still right now.
Drew Slocum:
Gotcha. Yeah. And I didn’t see it. You don’t see it much anymore, but there’s still older systems with them, like,
Sean Pearce:
Right. Yeah, absolutely. And there are some enormous systems.
Drew Slocum:
Yeah.
Sean Pearce:
In the market that
Drew Slocum:
He forgot Southern California. Somebody told me about it the other day, and I was like, what? There’s one in Southern, I guess they had an ES r system that had a bunch of
Sean Pearce:
Yeah. And, anybody that’s had a freeze who’s worried about it. I mean, there’s some systems in the Toronto area that are up over a thousand.
Drew Slocum:
Wow.
Sean Pearce:
You know, they’ve got an outbuilding somewhere, and they’ve got a line underground, and they’ve fed, they’ve just plumbed the whole thing with antifreeze. Wow. And forgotten about it.
Drew Slocum:
That’s crazy. Yeah. It’d be interesting to see, I mean, hopefully, there’s, you know, it gets pushed through at least the 2020 cuz I think a lot of jurisdictions will be moving to that soon enough. Sooner than that cuz there are some good changes in 2020. Yeah. Uh, if you gotta wait for 2023, It’s gonna change again before No, everybody even adopts the code.
Sean Pearce:
Absolutely.
Drew Slocum:
And I mean, you guys are all gonna change probably your product to a certain extent as
Sean Pearce:
Well. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Cause we’re all fighting to get to the gold temperature with the least impact on the property owner or the contractor. Yeah. Right. So everybody’s, you know, I can’t speak for anybody else, but I, but I’m sure we’re all working on the same thing. Yeah. Trying to, trying to make it more user-friendly.
Drew Slocum:
And I’m sure all the contractors know about all the anti-free systems out there that they have. Right. I mean, if they have it documented correctly from past inspections or installations, they should know where they’re, they need to go. Yeah. And at least provide them documentation of, Hey, we should be changing it out with this even though it’s not required yet.
Sean Pearce:
Absolutely. And when you think about choosing a product, think about your spaces a couple of ways. One is a cold space, and what temperature is it at? And then pick the right antifreeze for that temperature. And it may mean adding a fire pump because you may need one of those colder antifreeze. Sure. And now you’ve got that 20 psi penalty, so you may need a fire pump. Yeah. Um, the other portion is the, what I call partially conditioned spaces. So the first 10 heads on our heated garage, Yep. They get anti, get a small antifreeze loop in ’em, or a tail-end system. Yep. Yep. Um, because the door’s opening and closing all the time. Right. Yeah. So you don’t need that coldest antifreeze. Right. You know, uh, one of them, one of something like freeze master will, will suffice in that environment, Sure. Or a garbage room where the doors are open for half an hour while the bins go in and out of Yeah. Or something like that. Yeah. So as much as you wanna look at your climate overall and look at your, you know, your coldest temperature, mean temperature on any given day. Sure. Think about the space as well and pick the antifreeze. It’s gonna work best for you. Yeah.
Drew Slocum:
Yeah. There’s a lot, lot to think about. And I, I, I just kinda laugh a little bit with, uh, I might have to pause this here. Yeah. But, um, let me pause it. All right. We’re back. We were in a lounge here, uh, recording a podcast. So, uh, got a lot of people just randomly don’t know what we’re doing here. Yeah. <laugh> some chips. Yeah, no clue. Um, so a, anything else from, uh, you know, I know we talked a lot about freeze masters, anything, you know, blaze Masters got, uh, cooking, you know, you know?
Sean Pearce:
We’re, we’re always trying to push the envelope. Now more than ever. I have to, I have to say that Lu’s really embraced the concept of fire protection more than ever. Yeah. And, we’re trying to push the envelope, make it easier for people to install Yeah. Improve our listings, and differentiate ourselves. I mean, there are two CPVC products in the market right now. Um, our product has some really unique listings that the other product doesn’t. Yep. And understanding that and, and we’re working that we’re really working to keep pushing it, make it easier for people to use. Um, you know, if you’ve got somebody doing inspections on CPVC, uh, making sure they’re trained, even on installation, if you’re gonna do a, uh, a repair or some tenant fit at work on a CPDC system, you know, please get trained. Make sure you understand the concept of using new cement Yes. On anything that’s had water in it. Yeah. Don’t cut it with ratchet cutters. Use, uh, fine tooth saw on existing products so that you don’t end up with spider cracking and problems down the road. Yeah. If you know, if, if, and, and it doesn’t, it’s not just our product, it’s, it’s the Spears product as well, our competitor’s product. Yep. Take the training, and make sure you do it right. Yeah. And, so you don’t have issues.
Drew Slocum:
Yeah. There’s a big liability thing. Yeah. When you, especially if you break it, you know, you’re tapping it or repairing another system that somebody else put in. Exactly. Now that’s all on you. Yeah. Right. So you better have trained people doing it, and you guys do great training to talk to
Sean Pearce:
Yeah. I mean, it’s available and, and, and we have technical people all over the US and Canada. Yeah. So if you’ve got, uh, if you’ve got a question, we’re there to support you. You know, you, if you want us on a job site to walk a job site, we’ll do that. Right. If, uh, if you’re not sure how something is working in a system, we’ll come out and help you figure it out. Right. So, uh, and behind our field staff come, you know, another layer of technical staff, and then our scientists and chemists who develop the product, they’re behind us. Sure. And it just keeps going. Right. Yeah. And then our partners have field staff, and Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, so it, there’s a, there’s almost an endless pool of people who know how to help you. Uh, you just have to ask,
Drew Slocum:
I used to be a trainer.
Sean Pearce:
There you go, <laugh>. Right? No, but I mean it, that’s what we want. We want as many.
Drew Slocum:
Good Yeah. Provided a value that, like you couldn’t, I mean, this company was in the middle of nowhere, and they needed help, and you know, I was there and it, it, it really helped them out, and I think it is got a good relationship going with them. Yeah. Because it’s not, you’re not just selling, you’re actually providing value to their, to their business. Right?
Sean Pearce:
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And you, the goal is always to get people trained properly. So there, there’s, there’s always a conversation around C P V C and compatibility, and the thing to think about with compatibility is that it exists everywhere. So if you’re pouring a slab of concrete and somebody pours a bottle of coke into the slab while it’s setting, it won’t set sugar is incompatible with concrete. Right. Right. So something as simple as that. And you think about that guys are drinking soft drinks sometimes. Yeah. Right. Or juice on a construction site, and you can blow a whole floor up by just pouring juice onto wet concrete. And that’s, that’s chemical compatibility. So what we’ve done with our F BBC program is trying to get it in front of it. Right. But, in some cases, it’s had a bit of a reverse effect.
People get nervous about it because we talked about it. Right. Rather than embracing it and being in front of it. Yeah. And, you know, I, I mean, I use the example of Nelly dishwashers. They put a bunch of dishwashers out on the market, and somehow, the gasket wasn’t tested for use with the soap that goes into dishwashers. Oh, no way. And it was incompatible, and they had a bunch of failures. Oh, God. Right. So it literally, it exists everywhere. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And it’s not as frightening as most people make it out to be. It’s just about being educated. Yeah. Gaskets on, you know, mechanical couplings, all of that stuff has stuff that it doesn’t like. Right. You know, steel all by itself doesn’t like water. That’s why, that’s why we get corrosion. Right. And Nick and everything
Drew Slocum:
Else need oxygen with it. Yeah. There’s
Sean Pearce:
Oxygen in the water. There’s oxygen in the water. Right. And, now we have chloramines in the water, which are accelerating them.
Drew Slocum:
Yeah,
Sean Pearce:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. There’s, there’s a, a story in Denmark or Norway where galvanized pipe system, uh, chlorinated water produced hydrogen gas. What? So they drained the system to do an annual Yeah. Uh, didn’t shut any power off in the valve room. Right. Uh, head out, thankfully out of the valve room and had the valve cover off, and the hydrogen gas settled, and something sparked in the valve room, and it blew up. No way. Yeah. So you,
Drew Slocum:
The hydrogen gas from the
Sean Pearce:
The chemical reaction from the galvanized pipe and chlorine. So you, like, there’s things that, you know, we necessary, we may not necessarily have seen it here yet. Right. But it’s happening around the world.
Drew Slocum:
Interesting.
Sean Pearce:
And, and, you know, be, be aware of it.
Drew Slocum:
Yeah. Document it, you know. Yeah. The more data you have, the more you can go back to your, you know, the different buildings that you have contracts
Sean Pearce:
With an absolutely do it. So, yeah. Absolutely.
Drew Slocum:
Is there any, I know, I don’t know if I wanna bring this up or not any, uh, I know we were working on some stuff in, in New York City,
Sean Pearce:
<laugh>, uh, you know what, so, so New York’s an interesting animal. The do b if, I mean, if you’re from New York listening to this, just the words, the letters d o b probably drive you crazy, <laugh>. Um, and, and I and Drew kind. Yeah. I was bouncing off and drew a little bit trying to figure out what we could do there. And Drew warned me that I was gonna go crazy and, and it physically, I did, I think, a couple of times, but it, uh, we’re working on a couple of things there to try and improve the ability to use C P V C. Uh, again, I think there’s a lot of misinformation around what it means to use it to do it properly. Yeah. Yep. Um, and who’s doing it, right? There’s a belief that untrained people can do it. And, I think that in their wisdom, has to make sure that trained people do it.
Correct. Yeah. Uh, and, and there’s no shortage of factory training from any one of the manufacturers. Yeah. Yeah. So there’s no reason why you couldn’t make that a requirement there. Yeah, exactly. Um, and then, and then even beyond that, is affordability. So it is, uh, you know, especially right now with supply chain Yeah. It is a more affordable product. And so, uh, but you know, if you’re a contractor, don’t assume that your labor’s gonna be less; it’s different. Yes. It’s different. So don’t, don’t cut, you know, don’t cut your knees out trying to get a job because you’re using CPVC. Be be aware and do it right.
Drew Slocum:
For anybody that, uh, so, uh, New York City doesn’t allow, uh, C P V C above six, six stories without a commercial storefront. So is it, it was just, it always bogged my mind when I was in the market of why, you know, why we can’t use CPVC.I mean, it’s used everywhere else in the
Sean Pearce:
World, around the world, and billions of feet and stuff. Yeah. Yeah.
Drew Slocum:
So it’s, uh, I, you know, it’s, you know, trying, and there are some good efforts.
Sean Pearce:
There. I think so. Yeah, I think so. It, it’s interesting, right? Because Toronto is Canada’s mega city, and we have hundred-story buildings going up with CPVC in there. Yeah. And New York can’t get over cities.
Drew Slocum:
Yeah.
Sean Pearce:
<laugh>, right. So, it is a strange animal. Um, I, it doesn’t really affect, you know, the other thing with one of our unique listings that we’re seeing some adoption here in Canada is embedding CPBC in concrete.
Drew Slocum:
Oh, right. Yeah. I think you were mentioned.
Sean Pearce:
That. Yeah. So you can, you can embed it in the slab, um, and put your heads in afterward. Very different labor shift, Sure. Upfront labor rather than tail-end labor. It’s, it’s like a lot of prefabbing goes into it for sure. Um, you can’t, you can only do it in the cast in place, uh, in the US market. I’m finding a lot more of post-tension concrete. You can’t do it in that, huh? Um, some of the bands in post-tension do let go in the slab. Oh. And they just carve up everything in the slab when they do. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um, so it has to be a cast-and-paste slab, huh? For it to work. But we’re seeing, we’re seeing it, you know, in full floors, we’re seeing people jump up into balconies and put a head on a balcony or straight out of a balcony slab. Really? Yeah. We’re seeing that’s, we’re seeing a lot of kind of different stuff. So
Drew Slocum:
Architects will love that, you know, you don’t have to see any piping here, no pipe.
Sean Pearce:
Yeah, absolutely.
Drew Slocum:
That stuff. And
Sean Pearce:
It, it’s way easier to do that and use a dry, you know. Oh, yeah, yeah. You know, you could run a small antifreeze loop or something like that and and just pop it up into the slide.
Drew Slocum:
Yep. Yep. Wow. Wow. A lot of cool stuff. Yeah.
Sean Pearce:
You got a lot of fun.
Drew Slocum:
So, uh, you got your Canadian socks on. I
Sean Pearce:
See. Well, they’re red and black. Yeah. Red and Black.
Drew Slocum:
Captain America?
Sean Pearce:
Oh, Captain America. Yeah. <laugh>. I should have worn Canadian socks. I, yeah, <laugh>.
Drew Slocum:
We gotta, we gotta, I gotta set up Canadian socks.
Sean Pearce:
Oh, the Troy socks. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s good. That’s excellent. I think their logo has a Maple Leap, so you’ll be all right. Yeah. Yeah, it’s green. I dunno if that’s up, but anyway.
Drew Slocum:
<laugh>. Well, Sean, thanks. Thanks for stopping by the podcast.
Sean Pearce:
Good to see you yet. Yeah. Drew, it’s a good time
Drew Slocum:
Yeah. And finally, you know, exactly. It’s been, it’s been a while. Yeah. Um, but we’ll, we’ll be at, you’ll, you guys will probably be there at, at the FFSA
Sean Pearce:
Definitely. You
Drew Slocum:
Going? Yeah. Uh, uh, inspect point will be there. I will not be there. I’ll, I’m going to N F S A next week. Are you a business leadership conference?
Sean Pearce:
So I’ve got
Drew Slocum:
Excellent talking about deficiency management and inspection
Sean Pearce:
Stuff, so, very cool. Yeah. It’s important stuff. I mean, at the end of the day, we’re all in this for one reason, water out sprinkler heads, right? Yes. So, I can’t stress, uh, you know, my history in the fire service, I can’t stress enough for occupant safety, firefighter safety, uh, doing good inspections, how important that is to make sure these systems work. Yeah. Uh, when you look at buildings where, uh, systems, the sprinkler system hasn’t operated, uh, if you look at Dr. John Hall’s research, it’s, you know, greater than 90%, I forget the number Yeah, yeah. Where the systems were turned off, so why were they turned off? Lack of maintenance. Yep. You know, leaks because somebody wasn’t doing, you know, a, a property owner wasn’t paying for service work that was being suggested. You know, there’s all kinds of the rationale behind it. Sure. But w we need these sprinkler systems on, we need them working, um, because people’s lives are depending on any paid for ’em,
Drew Slocum:
It’s ridiculous that they’re not gonna have them. And I, I think insurance has to push it even a little bit more, or, and, and they’re starting to, I I, you know, there’s some, a lot of insurers out there that are really interested in the inspection and the data out there. Absolutely. Buildings Yeah. To make sure they have
Sean Pearce:
Systems and, and you, you know, the one thing about your platform, it’s an easy document for an AHJ to look at. Oh, yeah. Right? So when you’ve got contractors providing certificates and all this other nonsense, which really have no value at all, right? To get a document that really outlines deficiencies that an A H J can look at quickly. Yep. Yep. I think has huge value in the market. And, you know, an AHJ should be trying to figure out how to standardize that and get those documents in. Yeah. Because they, they have limited staff Yeah. And an enormous number of buildings to look at. Sure. So good inspection software, like, like, like your inspections point. I, there’s a place for it in the market and, and I, I hope that all the parties involved understand the value and, and get going on adoption.
Drew Slocum:
Yeah. And I, it, it’s starting to come where I was, uh, we were talking about third party earlier in the presentation, and it’s happened in the US, but in Canada, it hasn’t, hasn’t peaked out, but essentially an HJ kind of portal that to put all that data. Yeah. Um, that’s super powerful. And I think in the next five years, it’s gonna be really telling, and a lot of this we go on and out because it does make things safer.
Sean Pearce:
It absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I, I mean, per personal experience, fire sprinklers, save lives. Yeah. There’s, there’s just no way to argue that point. Yeah. And, uh, and nothing irks me more than systems that are installed, and they’re not functioning.
Drew Slocum:
All that money for,
Sean Pearce:
It’s like
Drew Slocum:
<laugh>
Sean Pearce:
Yeah. No sense of like,
Drew Slocum:
Turn your AC
Sean Pearce:
Off. Exactly.
Drew Slocum:
It’s a comfort thing for safety, too.
Thanks again to Sean Pierce from Lubrizol to jump on the podcast today. Um, we’ve got a lot more episodes coming out. We’re trying to do, uh, one, one or so a month, um, up and through next year. So, uh, if there’s any, any ideas for different podcasts, uh, we’ve got a few set for the fall and winter, but, uh, yeah, please like, and subscribe and, uh, see here back again soon. Thanks.